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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:06 am 
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Kingston wrote:
I guess what Im asking is this; which has more value? A solid if unspectacular journeyman in a waste of time season... or a young and unspectacular prospect who at least has the potential to be of SOME help down the road when it matters?

I suppose its clear to the regulars Im not particularly passionate about this. But I find it to be an interesting theoretical.


There is no answer now. NH apparently did not see enough in Redmond to keep him. If Redmond never makes it to the majors, then Yates had more value and NH was right.

Like we have said a million times, too early to tell.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:09 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
Kingston wrote:
I guess what Im asking is this; which has more value? A solid if unspectacular journeyman in a waste of time season... or a young and unspectacular prospect who at least has the potential to be of SOME help down the road when it matters?

I suppose its clear to the regulars Im not particularly passionate about this. But I find it to be an interesting theoretical.


There is no answer now. NH apparently did not see enough in Redmond to keep him. If Redmond never makes it to the majors, then Yates had more value and NH was right.

Like we have said a million times, too early to tell.

But regardless of the outcome, one can question the philosophy behind the deal. And as I and others have mentioned, the philosopy doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a rebuildig team.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:09 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
Kingston wrote:
I guess what Im asking is this; which has more value? A solid if unspectacular journeyman in a waste of time season... or a young and unspectacular prospect who at least has the potential to be of SOME help down the road when it matters?

I suppose its clear to the regulars Im not particularly passionate about this. But I find it to be an interesting theoretical.


There is no answer now. NH apparently did not see enough in Redmond to keep him. If Redmond never makes it to the majors, then Yates had more value and NH was right.

Like we have said a million times, too early to tell.


I happily accept that answer, only to add that if Redmond does make it to the majors and is a serviceable reliever in a few years then NH was wrong. Like you said, tho, and youre right, time will tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:15 am 
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WillieBuc wrote:
I guess I still havent seen any real argument that whatever contribution Yates may have made in the past has any value to this franchise. We are rebuilding, he has no chance to be any part of that. Redmond may not have been good enough to make it, but he had a chance. Any chance is bigger than the zero chance Yates has to matter.

All the discussion of the "need" for a jobber like Yates, or the pitching ability of either guy is moot. The point is a team that is rebuilding should never trade a prospect for anything other than another prospect.

Okay, but does this move warrant condemnation and immediate replacement of Huntington? Even if we conclude that trading Redmond for Yates was a bad move, was this a move of much consequence? Where does this stack in the grand scheme of things? Does it even warrant mentioning at all?

Honestly, this is small potatoes compared to the Bay/Nady deals. Why are we spending 6 pages of discussion on this issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:18 am 
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Alex P. Keaton wrote:
But regardless of the outcome, one can question the philosophy behind the deal. And as I and others have mentioned, the philosopy doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a rebuildig team.

No, it doesn't, but that does not mean that the Redmond/Yates trade is a harbinger of things to come, especially considering it's the only one that Huntington has executed. Don't fall down the slippery slope of extrapolating this trade to infinity.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:05 am 
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I think we can conclude that neither are part of a winning Pirates future.

Given that, and I think NH knows that, then it falls to what do I need this year, right now. The Pirates desparately needed, at the end of ST last year, a guy like Yates. They did not need a Todd Redmond. When winning in 2011, they will not need a Todd Redmond.

Todd Redmond was replaced, easily, by the trade and other acquisitions over last year by guys who actually have a chance to be much better, and a part of a future winner.

Thus, Yates represents merely the annual attempt by all teams to put out a bullpen with a chance "this year".

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:10 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
NH apparently did not see enough in Redmond to keep him. If Redmond never makes it to the majors, then Yates had more value and NH was right.


I'd actually disagree with this assessment. If Yates has been below average in his major league time with the Pirates (as the statistics bear out), and the Pirates are paying him $1.3 million dollars to pitch poorly, I'd rather have a prospect of almost any ilk who has the potential to succeed, rather than a veteran who has a track record of mediocrity or worse throughout his entire career.

And as for why this is being discussed for six pages, this is a Pirates message board, correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:29 pm 
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Punter, Yates hasn't pitched poorly..while I agree that he struggles at times, especially against left-handed hitters..Yates puts up good numbers against right-handed hitters.

Yates can be an effective righty killer..something essential to building a strong bullpen. It's not like Neal gave up a great prospect in Redmond.

I was a broadcaster in the Southern League last season and had the opportunity to see Redmond pitch a few times..he put up good numbers in a pitchers league, but he wasn't the best pitcher in the league..not by a longshot. His teammate Tommy Hanson, Clayton Kershaw and David Price spent time in that league last year and each of them had WAY better numbers than Redmond. The only reason why Redmond was given the award was his longevity in the league. The other three pitchers mentioned didn't pitch a full season in the Southern League like Redmond.

As good as Redmond was number wise last year, he isn't a top ten or twenty caliber prospect. Not to say he won't make it to the majors, but he isn't a blue chip prospect.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:32 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Thus, Yates represents merely the annual attempt by all teams to put out a bullpen with a chance "this year".

ZM

Dumb move by Opie. And one of the examples I used as a red flag for him not being a competent GM. He wasted his entire first offseason under the illusion the 2008 Pirates could have contended. So not only did he essentially bring back the entire 2007 team, but he even attempted to add a piece at the risk of their future.

Sorry folks, that's not how you rebuild a historically bad franchise.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:38 pm 
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curveradio wrote:
Punter, Yates hasn't pitched poorly..while I agree that he struggles at times, especially against left-handed hitters..Yates puts up good numbers against right-handed hitters.


For the number of times I get accused of using a strawman argument (which I entirely disagree), it's amazing how many posters here attempt to cherry pick stats to support their position. Yates is and has never been a good pitcher. Not in the minors and not in the majors. His nearly 700 innings pitched support that.

curveradio wrote:
Yates can be an effective righty killer..something essential to building a strong bullpen. It's not like Neal gave up a great prospect in Redmond.


How important is a bullpen on a rebuilding team? Not very. And the fact Opie targeted it at the expense of a prospect, regardless of his potential, was simply wrong.

curveradio wrote:
As good as Redmond was number wise last year, he isn't a top ten or twenty caliber prospect. Not to say he won't make it to the majors, but he isn't a blue chip prospect.

I'm not saying he's a blue chip prospect. But he's still a prospect. And he likely would be in the top 5 starting pitching prospect in the Pirate's organization.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:41 pm 
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curveradio wrote:
Punter, Yates hasn't pitched poorly..while I agree that he struggles at times, especially against left-handed hitters..Yates puts up good numbers against right-handed hitters.

Yates can be an effective righty killer..something essential to building a strong bullpen. It's not like Neal gave up a great prospect in Redmond.

I would completely disagree that Yates has pitched well in any way, shape or form. When your career ERA is 5.00 and your WHIP is 1.56 and you are a relief pitcher, you aren't very good, period. As for your contention that he is good against right-handed hitters, so what? Do you honestly think it is difficult to find a reliever who can get right-handed hitters out at a relatively decent rate? It isn't like he has been dominant against righties in his career, they have reached base at .326 OBP and put up an OPS of .693 - good numbers, but no more than typical for a righty, especially when viewed in context of his poor control, which a late inning pitcher just can't have. A righty killer would be someone like Kent Tekulve - career .260 OBP and .556 OPS (outstanding numbers), despite always struggling mightily against left-handed batters.

And regardless of whether Redmond turns out to be any good, you don't trade young pitching prospects of any kind for below-average veteran relievers that can be picked up off the scrap heap, and you certainly don't pay them 1.3 million dollars and them claim you don't enough money to make a play for free agents. That just isn't good business.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:42 pm 
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Alex P. Keaton wrote:
Dumb move by Opie. And one of the examples I used as a red flag for him not being a competent GM. He wasted his entire first offseason under the illusion the 2008 Pirates could have contended. So not only did he essentially bring back the entire 2007 team, but he even attempted to add a piece at the risk of their future.

Sorry folks, that's not how you rebuild a historically bad franchise.


For lack of a better term, what a piece crap reasoning. You continue to suggest that Redmond represents, somehow, someway, the future. He does not. Thus, getting a marginal pitcher who can help you compete this year is of essence.

As I specifically pointed out, and you as usual, ignore. Neither are part of the long term picture. Thus, your rather arrogant assurance that you understand "competance" is once again called into question.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Punter wrote:
... Do you honestly think it is difficult to find a reliever who can get right-handed hitters out at a relatively decent rate?...


Then I ask the obvious question. Name them.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:45 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Punter wrote:
... Do you honestly think it is difficult to find a reliever who can get right-handed hitters out at a relatively decent rate?...


Then I ask the obvious question. Name them.

ZM


We had one in TJ Beam, who had better numbers against righties than did Yates last season. We released him, despite being younger and cheaper. He was immediately picked up by Toronto, who has a much better team and bullpen than do the Pirates.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Punter wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Punter wrote:
... Do you honestly think it is difficult to find a reliever who can get right-handed hitters out at a relatively decent rate?...


Then I ask the obvious question. Name them.

ZM


We had one in TJ Beam, who had better numbers against righties than did Yates last season. We released him, despite being younger and cheaper. He was immediately picked up by Toronto, who has a much better team and bullpen than do the Pirates.


If TJ was so good as you say, why did the Yankees let him go, better than both the Pirates and Blue Jays?....

I'm waiting for your I Hate Neal Huntington And The Nutting Family Handbook for the answer...or do you need to ask the other messageboard you came from for the answer?

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:51 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:

If TJ was so good as you say, why did the Yankees let him go, better than both the Pirates and Blue Jays?....

I'm waiting for your I Hate Neal Huntington And The Nutting Family Handbook for the answer...or do you need to ask the other messageboard you came from for the answer?


I never said TJ Beam was any good at all. I personally think that he's below average. But I think that he's every bit as good as Tyler Yates and it demonstrates how relief pitchers of the quality of TJ Beam and Tyler Yates are easy to pick up off the scrap heap or on the cheap, you certainly should never trade something of value for them or pay them 1.3 million dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Unless you determined that neither provide value for a winning team.

And, Yates is a better pitcher than Beam, when used correctly as has been shown.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:00 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Unless you determined that neither provide value for a winning team.

And, Yates is a better pitcher than Beam, when used correctly as has been shown.

ZM


Please wait for the answer as he's not good at speed reading his handbook yet...there arent enough damn pictures in there to make it easy on him

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:13 pm 
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Earlier in this thread I mentioned Yates numbers last season against righties..and also mentioned his sub 2 ERA in twelve September outings..the month of September alone blows up your theory that Yates never pitched well "in any way, shape or form."

Alex..you mentioned that NH thought this team could contend in 2008?? What kind of crap are you smoking dude..NH NEVER said anything about contending and further more if this minor blip on the screen deal is the reason or big example to why you think NH is a poor GM, then you need to drop the crack pipe and get sober..


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:32 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Unless you determined that neither provide value for a winning team.

And, Yates is a better pitcher than Beam, when used correctly as has been shown.

ZM


I agree totally. If you've watched more than 3 games of baseball you know that Yates is better than Beam. But ZM, did you find a mathematical algorithm to prove it.


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