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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:48 pm 
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At the time Yates was acquired, he was needed. That a couple guys developed around him during the year does not mitigate the fact that he brought a need RH power arm at the start of the seaons.

As to Beam, I kinda liked him. Saw him pitch a few really good long relief stints, but he just doesn't have the kind of oooomph behind his pitch that Yates does.

Neither strike me as a make it or break it kind of pitcher. And, neither will determine the ultimate outcome for PIT or TOR, but I'd prefer Yate's big arm and his proven ability, when properly rested, to bring he big out pitch in the 7th.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:04 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Punter wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Yates was a more effective pitcher than Beam last season

Beam was the mop up man for most of the season


By what statistical measure have you determined this to be true? Beam had a superior ERA, WHIP, was better against righties (which some have suggested here is Yates' strong point), and trailed Yates in only K/9 rate, which is likely offset by Beam's ability to keep hitters off base at a much higher rate than Yates.


Their roles in the bullpen

Beam was a mop up man, while Yates was in late inning pitcher

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... amtj01&t=p

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... esty01&t=p


And it's precisely this type of posts that has me determining nad69dan as the least objective poster on this board. The fact he truly believes stuff like this in the face of statistical evidence to the contrary is simply sad. The hell with one's minor league and major league career, our fearless and infallible leader has deamed him superior, so it must be so.

As I don't necessarily fault anyone for so blindly following something, when it comes to message board posting or intelligent baseball discussion, it's nothing short of absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:05 pm 
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I don't really have much to add to the Beam vs Yates argument other than the fact that Yates pitched twice as many innings. So if you're going to say Beam was the superior pitcher, then you need to assume that he would have continued to post his numbers even though a) he was exposed to more hitters b) he would be more likely to fatigue. I'm not sure I make those assumptions.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:06 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
At the time Yates was acquired, he was needed. That a couple guys developed around him during the year does not mitigate the fact that he brought a need RH power arm at the start of the seaons.

As to Beam, I kinda liked him. Saw him pitch a few really good long relief stints, but he just doesn't have the kind of oooomph behind his pitch that Yates does.

Neither strike me as a make it or break it kind of pitcher. And, neither will determine the ultimate outcome for PIT or TOR, but I'd prefer Yate's big arm and his proven ability, when properly rested, to bring he big out pitch in the 7th.

ZM

I agree with some of this, but as I originally stated, it's not so much about who is better between the two than it is how each team acquired their respective pitchers. Love or hate Todd Redmond, there's simply no reason to give him up for Yates when pitchers like him are availble for free.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Redmond - 23 year old right-handed reliever/spot starter candidate, throws 90 mph (which means upper 80's if he has to go 5 innings), good control, never pitched above AA, logged an ERA of 4.54 in high A with just 95 K's in 142 innings in 2007 (year traded).

Yates - 30 year old right-handed reliever, control problems, but with 96-97 mph velocity and whiffle-ball slider. Performed well in first half of 2007. Struggled second half. Had health issues in past.

The value of these two is not as far apart as you believe, Alex. If Redmond can work successfully as a starter, even a number 5, his value is greater than that of a late-inning reliever. However, the value of a reliever working in the minors is not greater than that of a late-inning reliever now in the majors.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:17 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Redmond - 23 year old right-handed reliever/spot starter candidate, throws 90 mph (which means upper 80's if he has to go 5 innings), good control, never pitched above AA, logged an ERA of 4.54 in high A with just 95 K's in 142 innings in 2007 (year traded).

Yates - 30 year old right-handed reliever, control problems, but with 96-97 mph velocity and whiffle-ball slider. Performed well in first half of 2007. Struggled second half. Had health issues in past.

The value of these two is not as far apart as you believe, Alex. If Redmond can work successfully as a starter, even a number 5, his value is greater than that of a late-inning reliever. However, the value of a reliever working in the minors is not greater than that of a late-inning reliever now in the majors.


I think we all know what to expect from Tyler Yates. After over 200 innings pitched in the majors and more than 400 in the minors, all indications are he's nothing more than a mediocre relief pitcher. And likely even not that good despite his velocity.

We don't know what type of pitcher Todd Redmond is going to be. He could be a bust. He could be the next Josh Fogg. He could be the next Greg Maddux. Although the Greg Maddux comparison are highly, highly unlikely, who knows. The point is we don't know.

And the Pirates will never know first hand because they gave him away for a middle reliever. A middle reliever who really isn't that good. A middle reliever of the quality that is completley fungible and readily available for nothing. Either through Rule V draft, minor league free agency, or off the waiver wire. So the point is, regardless of how good or bad Todd Redmond becomes, you don't give him up for a middle reliever. Especially when you're talking about a team with very, very little depth at starting pitching and on a team destined to lose 90 games. So why the utter importance of a middle reliever? Everyone talks about how Dunn won't contribute much to a losing team. I'm suggesting a crappy to mediocre middle reliever contributes even less. Much less.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:27 pm 
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By my estimate, we're about 9 pages away from the start of the discussion about Tyler Yates' intangibles.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
By my estimate, we're about 9 pages away from the start of the discussion about Tyler Yates' intangibles.

Is that before or after he gets compared to Dave Kingman?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:35 pm 
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Alex P. Keaton wrote:
Kingston wrote:
By my estimate, we're about 9 pages away from the start of the discussion about Tyler Yates' intangibles.

Is that before or after he gets compared to Dave Kingman?


More fittingly, Dave Laroche.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:37 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Alex P. Keaton wrote:
Kingston wrote:
By my estimate, we're about 9 pages away from the start of the discussion about Tyler Yates' intangibles.

Is that before or after he gets compared to Dave Kingman?


More fittingly, Dave Laroche.

Tyler Yates is the right handed Terry Forster?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Alex P. Keaton wrote:
I think we all know what to expect from Tyler Yates. After over 200 innings pitched in the majors and more than 400 in the minors, all indications are he's nothing more than a mediocre relief pitcher. And likely even not that good despite his velocity.

The Braves liked him, but he fell victim to a numbers game on their end. They had four R-handed relievers and only 3 spots. But don't undervalue his potential contribution - he is a guy who can get 3 or 6 tough outs, late in close games. That has real value.

Getting 15 outs in AA has less value ... a LOT less.

Alex P. Keaton wrote:
We don't know what type of pitcher Todd Redmond is going to be. He could be a bust. He could be the next Josh Fogg. He could be the next Greg Maddux. Although the Greg Maddux comparison are highly, highly unlikely, who knows. The point is we don't know.

Reasonable projections are made based on performance and quality of pitches. Redmond was coming off a season with more hits allowed than IP in high A ball, with a 4.54 ERA. He tops out as 90 mph as a starter. That does not project to being a major league starter. He is more likely a middle reliever - i.e., somebody with less value than Yates.

That is not a ringing endorsement for Greg Maddux-like success. In fact, if you look at Maddux's minor league performance, you will see that he reached A ball at age 19, and was in the majors at age 20. Comparing him to Redmond is not legitimate.

Further, the "you never know how he will turn out" argument completely destroys your criticism of Huntington for the return on the Bay/Nady deals. If young talent is so freaking valuable, that a 90 mph sinker guy who is hammered in high A ball projects as a possible Greg Maddux, how can you ever conclude that the Pirates did not get enough for Bay and Nady? Particularly where they got pitchers (Ohlendorf, McCutchen, Morris) with much better stuff, and who had performed successfully at higher levels than Redmond.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:07 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Further, the "you never know how he will turn out" argument completely destroys your criticism of Huntington for the return on the Bay/Nady deals. If young talent is so freaking valuable, that a 90 mph sinker guy who is hammered in high A ball projects as a possible Greg Maddux, how can you ever conclude that the Pirates did not get enough for Bay and Nady? Particularly where they got pitchers (Ohlendorf, McCutchen, Morris) with much better stuff, and who had performed successfully at higher levels than Redmond.


Apples and oranges.

Had the Pirates acquired Todd Redmond in the Nady deal, I'd bitch just as much. My point about Redmond isn't that I think he's a sure fire prospect, just that the Pirates gave him away for an unnecessary part. Conversely, I'd be fine having Karstens, McCutchen, and Ohlendorf in the Pirates minor league system. However, you can't ignore what was given in return for those three.

As I said earlier, Redmond's minor league career is very similar to Daniel McCutchen. Wouldn't it be safe to say we would all be in an uproar if McCutchen is dealt for a 30 year old reliever?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:14 pm 
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Ill say this much. Forgetting the comparative merits of each player, when a team is aiming for 2011 (more or less) it makes sense to hold on to the younger player who'll be a part of that effort rather than the journeyman player who will not.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:22 pm 
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John Sickels does not have Todd Redmond in his top 25 Braves prospects so there is one evaluator who doesn't think highly of Redmond.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:25 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
John Sickels does not have Todd Redmond in his top 25 Braves prospects so there is one evaluator who doesn't think highly of Redmond.

I think how deep the Brave's minor league system plays a part of that as I guarantee he'd be in the Pirate's top 25.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:37 pm 
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Alex P. Keaton wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
John Sickels does not have Todd Redmond in his top 25 Braves prospects so there is one evaluator who doesn't think highly of Redmond.

I think how deep the Brave's minor league system plays a part of that as I guarantee he'd be in the Pirate's top 25.


Possibly. Sickels rates him a C which means he could be as high at 16th in the Pirates system to as low as 40th. He is considered a prospect at this point and that's it.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:41 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Alex P. Keaton wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
John Sickels does not have Todd Redmond in his top 25 Braves prospects so there is one evaluator who doesn't think highly of Redmond.

I think how deep the Brave's minor league system plays a part of that as I guarantee he'd be in the Pirate's top 25.


Possibly. Sickels rates him a C which means he could be as high at 16th in the Pirates system to as low as 40th. He is considered a prospect at this point and that's it.


Well, hes only 23. Can we at least concede the possibility for growth and improvement? (I admit Im arguing blind here, never having seen the youngster pitch).


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:51 pm 
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I guess I still havent seen any real argument that whatever contribution Yates may have made in the past has any value to this franchise. We are rebuilding, he has no chance to be any part of that. Redmond may not have been good enough to make it, but he had a chance. Any chance is bigger than the zero chance Yates has to matter.

All the discussion of the "need" for a jobber like Yates, or the pitching ability of either guy is moot. The point is a team that is rebuilding should never trade a prospect for anything other than another prospect.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:59 pm 
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WillieBuc wrote:
I guess I still havent seen any real argument that whatever contribution Yates may have made in the past has any value to this franchise. We are rebuilding, he has no chance to be any part of that. Redmond may not have been good enough to make it, but he had a chance. Any chance is bigger than the zero chance Yates has to matter.

All the discussion of the "need" for a jobber like Yates, or the pitching ability of either guy is moot. The point is a team that is rebuilding should never trade a prospect for anything other than another prospect.


Or how about the fact the Pirates will be paying Yates 1.3 million next season. We can argue all we want about the value for someone like Adam Dunn, but there's no denying giving Yates 1.3 is vastly overpaying for a bad/mediocre reliever.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:01 am 
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I guess what Im asking is this; which has more value? A solid if unspectacular journeyman in a waste of time season... or a young and unspectacular prospect who at least has the potential to be of SOME help down the road when it matters?

I suppose its clear to the regulars Im not particularly passionate about this. But I find it to be an interesting theoretical.


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