Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:19 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 86 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:54 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:52 am
Posts: 73
ZelieMike wrote:
Yeah, just ask Mike Williams...

ZM


Mike Williams had two good seasons in Pittsburgh, in 1998 and 2002. Ironically enough, they were when he was able to keep his WHIP at a solid level, and not give up his usual inordinate number of bases on balls. Tyler Yates has not yet been able to accomplish such a feat.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:54 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Springfield, IL
I like Yates..did you know he held right handed hitters to a .224 average with a very low OBP of .330 and a slugging pct. of just .345 last season? He has the ability to be a very good reliever against right handed hitters.

I saw Redmond play a ton in the Southern League last season. He's not going to be a starter..his best bet is in the bullpen. It's not like NH gave up someone like Tommy Hanson for Yates. Had he done something that stupid, I would have gone Alex P. Keaton on him.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:32 pm
Posts: 3173
Location: Darlington, Pennsylvania
Alex P. Keaton wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
Since coming back to full health in about June of 2006 he has been a solid pitcher.


Again, his 2007 and 2008 season completely disagree. Relievers who walk 5 for every 9 innings pitched and regularly post WHIP's around 1.50 aren't solid.

But more importantly, pitchers like Yates can easily be had. Just ask the Blue Jays who just picked up T.J. Beam off waivers.


T.J. Beam is a giant twig plus he looks like Mr.Bean
Beam/Bean alittle too close for me


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4235
Location: Zelienople, PA
There you go.. Alex has become a verb...

Should we have an ascension ceremony or something? Maybe sacrifice a six pack while we drink scotch and eat walnuts... or something?

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:58 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:53 pm
Posts: 179
Colin21 wrote:
Alex P. Keaton wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
Since coming back to full health in about June of 2006 he has been a solid pitcher.


Again, his 2007 and 2008 season completely disagree. Relievers who walk 5 for every 9 innings pitched and regularly post WHIP's around 1.50 aren't solid.

But more importantly, pitchers like Yates can easily be had. Just ask the Blue Jays who just picked up T.J. Beam off waivers.


T.J. Beam is a giant twig plus he looks like Mr.Bean
Beam/Bean alittle too close for me

Perhaps.

Yet Beam has had a better minor league career. And even during his short time with the Pirates, outperformed Yates.

And I'm not saying Beam is a great pitcher. Only illustrating teams can acquire relievers of the value of guys like Yates and Beam without having to give up anything in return. Essentially, trading almost anything for 30 relievers isn't smart.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4235
Location: Zelienople, PA
Yates did just fine, until like the rest of the pen, he succumbed to the starting staff. In a limited role against righties, he was effective early and later on, when his arm wasn't dangling by his side because of another Gorzo blowup.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:06 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Springfield, IL
To add to your point Zelie, Yates had a ERA of 1.64 in September.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:07 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:52 am
Posts: 73
I wish I was judged by my boss using the low standard that many of you seem to employ to gauge effectiveness of baseball players. Tyler Yates has never been anything but mediocre to below average when looking at anything but small sample sizes - even his minor league numbers weren't impressive. Heck, TJ Beam was more effective last season and the Pirates did not have to trade anything to get him, nor pay him over a million dollars to put hitters on base. And yet he was deemed expendable despite being younger and cheaper than Yates (and being more effective against righties if that is your concern - .210 BA, 1.04 WHIP). Unsurprisingly, he was picked up immediately by Toronto, a much more successful organization than the Pirates.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:09 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:53 pm
Posts: 179
ZelieMike wrote:
Yates did just fine, until like the rest of the pen, he succumbed to the starting staff. In a limited role against righties, he was effective early and later on, when his arm wasn't dangling by his side because of another Gorzo blowup.

ZM


That's interesting because he pitched the fewest innings of any month in August. And posted an ERA of 12.00


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7275
Yates was a more effective pitcher than Beam last season

Beam was the mop up man for most of the season

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:25 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:52 am
Posts: 73
nad69dan wrote:
Yates was a more effective pitcher than Beam last season

Beam was the mop up man for most of the season


By what statistical measure have you determined this to be true? Beam had a superior ERA, WHIP, was better against righties (which some have suggested here is Yates' strong point), and trailed Yates in only K/9 rate, which is likely offset by Beam's ability to keep hitters off base at a much higher rate than Yates.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7275
Punter wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Yates was a more effective pitcher than Beam last season

Beam was the mop up man for most of the season


By what statistical measure have you determined this to be true? Beam had a superior ERA, WHIP, was better against righties (which some have suggested here is Yates' strong point), and trailed Yates in only K/9 rate, which is likely offset by Beam's ability to keep hitters off base at a much higher rate than Yates.


Their roles in the bullpen

Beam was a mop up man, while Yates was in late inning pitcher

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... amtj01&t=p

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... esty01&t=p

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:33 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Springfield, IL
Beam had a lower OBP vs. righties. Yates had a lower SLG against righties. Yates was much better vs. lefties though truth be told both of them were horrible against left-handed hitters.

I would assume that management kept Yates because of his strikeout rate and the fact that they gave up some decent (not great but decent) prospects for him. If Yates continues to put up good numbers vs. right-handed hitters, he could become a good piece in the reworking of this staff.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:34 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:52 am
Posts: 73
nad69dan wrote:
Punter wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Yates was a more effective pitcher than Beam last season

Beam was the mop up man for most of the season


By what statistical measure have you determined this to be true? Beam had a superior ERA, WHIP, was better against righties (which some have suggested here is Yates' strong point), and trailed Yates in only K/9 rate, which is likely offset by Beam's ability to keep hitters off base at a much higher rate than Yates.


Their roles in the bullpen

Beam was a mop up man, while Yates was in late inning pitcher

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... amtj01&t=p

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... esty01&t=p


So it is better to pitch really poorly in the late innings of games than it is to pitch at a mediocre level in earlier innings? This is your actual contention here? Am I missing something?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7275
Punter wrote:
nad69dan wrote:

Their roles in the bullpen

Beam was a mop up man, while Yates was in late inning pitcher

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... amtj01&t=p

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... esty01&t=p


So it is better to pitch really poorly in the late innings of games than it is to pitch at a mediocre level in earlier innings? This is your actual contention here? Am I missing something?


So Russell had faith in putting Yates in the 8th of a close game compared to in the 4th inning down by 6 runs...

Open the links and read the stat lines...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:38 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:52 am
Posts: 73
curveradio wrote:
Beam had a lower OBP vs. righties. Yates had a lower SLG against righties. Yates was much better vs. lefties though truth be told both of them were horrible against left-handed hitters.

I would assume that management kept Yates because of his strikeout rate and the fact that they gave up some decent (not great but decent) prospects for him. If Yates continues to put up good numbers vs. right-handed hitters, he could become a good piece in the reworking of this staff.


I have no doubt that you are correct that Yates was kept by management because they actually traded something for him. But even a cursory look at his numbers, especially when viewed in the context of league averages for relievers, suggests that paying him $1.3 million dollars and cutting someone like Beam is a really wasteful allocation of money. There is just no evidence that Tyler Yates has the type of command to ever be a successful major league pitcher and there is a pretty substantial number of innings to evidence this, in addition to the fact that he is already 32 years old and by no means a prospect.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:39 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:52 am
Posts: 73
nad69dan wrote:
Punter wrote:
nad69dan wrote:

Their roles in the bullpen

Beam was a mop up man, while Yates was in late inning pitcher

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... amtj01&t=p

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl ... esty01&t=p


So it is better to pitch really poorly in the late innings of games than it is to pitch at a mediocre level in earlier innings? This is your actual contention here? Am I missing something?


So Russell had faith in putting Yates in the 8th of a close game compared to in the 4th inning down by 6 runs...

Open the links and read the stat lines...


So the blind faith of a rookie manager on a horrible baseball team is your evidence as to Yates' value, and not pretty much every statistical measure which shows that he just isn't a very good pitcher? I've read the stat lines and they add up to a bad ERA and a worse WHIP, which is right in line with his bad career numbers.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Punter wrote:
The same Todd Redmond that was named the Southern League's Most Outstanding Pitcher for 2008? He seems to be able to get people out, which is more than Tyler Yates has ever accomplished in either his minor or major league career.

http://www.mlntherawfeed.com/minor-leag ... -most.html

Yusmeiro Petit was a similar type pitcher. He had all the accolades back in the day when he was a Mets farmhand. Look what happened to him.

Redmond has very little projectability. The Pirates needed a bullpen arm in order to get through games, so they traded him for Yates. I don't see why this is a huge deal.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Last edited by Willton on Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7275
I'd trust Russell making that move and knowing his pitching staff better than you would know based on whip and walks...

Situations are different and a guy being used in the 4th and 5th inning isnt under the same pressures as someone in a 2 or 3 run game

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Tyler Yates
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:58 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:28 pm
Posts: 33
Yates is a fungible commodity. Even Littlefield could find similar jobbers to fill relief roles. Paying for fungible commodities is a bad management strategy when that money should be going into the draft or development. Trading prospects for fungible commodities is an even worse management strategy.

Of all the things NH has done well, and there are many, this is one of his worst moments. Thats pretty obvious. Not sure why it needs to be hammered home again, other than NH keeps compounding his first mistake of the trade with continuing to overpay for someone who has no use in our rebuilding plans.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 86 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits