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 Post subject: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:34 pm 
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I don't know if anybody has ever brought this up on here but the solution might have been right in front of us the entire time.

Walker to 1B and Jay Hay to 2B.

I know 1B has been above average so far but definitely not as good as Walker being there full-time. That's a strong 8 offensively and on the field. No holes IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:18 pm 
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urbman21 wrote:
I don't know if anybody has ever brought this up on here but the solution might have been right in front of us the entire time.

Walker to 1B and Jay Hay to 2B.

I know 1B has been above average so far but definitely not as good as Walker being there full-time. That's a strong 8 offensively and on the field. No holes IMO.


Except that would be a hit on defense. I'd rather put Harrison on first.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:59 pm 
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The reason why Walker is a plus player and gives positive WAR is because his hitting is so good for a 2nd baseman.

If you move him to 1st base, he becomes a below-average hitter for the position.

If you want to make a move with Walker, then put him at 3B, where he would be an elite defender (similar to Carpenter), and his bat would still be competitive.

Deal Pedro for a legit starting pitcher.

Move Harrison and possibly Hanson by 2016 to 2B.

Now, you have a good fielding 3rd baseman, a good fielding SS (Mercer is above average), a good fielding 2nd baseman (Harrison is a good-not-great defender at the position), and a decent platoon at 1B. The infield will hit enough, particularly if Harrison can hit .280/.335/.450 with 50 XBH's and 20 SB's, and Mercer hits like he has for the past 2 months.

Plus, you have a legit arm in the rotation to join Cole, Morton, Locke and a number 5 next year, with Kingham and Taillon on the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:20 pm 
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rellimie wrote:

Except that would be a hit on defense. I'd rather put Harrison on first.


Harrison on first would be a disaster, in my opinion. The guy is tiny.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:27 pm 
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eggson27 wrote:
Harrison on first would be a disaster, in my opinion. The guy is tiny.

But I mean, what are the chances that Pedro would overthrow ... ohhhh, I see your point.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:54 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
The reason why Walker is a plus player and gives positive WAR is because his hitting is so good for a 2nd baseman.

If you move him to 1st base, he becomes a below-average hitter for the position.

If you want to make a move with Walker, then put him at 3B, where he would be an elite defender (similar to Carpenter), and his bat would still be competitive.

Deal Pedro for a legit starting pitcher.

Move Harrison and possibly Hanson by 2016 to 2B.

Now, you have a good fielding 3rd baseman, a good fielding SS (Mercer is above average), a good fielding 2nd baseman (Harrison is a good-not-great defender at the position), and a decent platoon at 1B. The infield will hit enough, particularly if Harrison can hit .280/.335/.450 with 50 XBH's and 20 SB's, and Mercer hits like he has for the past 2 months.

Plus, you have a legit arm in the rotation to join Cole, Morton, Locke and a number 5 next year, with Kingham and Taillon on the way.


Sometimes I think you should be a GM.

I agree with you almost all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:46 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
urbman21 wrote:
I don't know if anybody has ever brought this up on here but the solution might have been right in front of us the entire time.

Walker to 1B and Jay Hay to 2B.

I know 1B has been above average so far but definitely not as good as Walker being there full-time. That's a strong 8 offensively and on the field. No holes IMO.


Except that would be a hit on defense. I'd rather put Harrison on first.

Not a good idea to have a guy that short at first. Besides, first is not the black hole that everybody wants it to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:49 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
The reason why Walker is a plus player and gives positive WAR is because his hitting is so good for a 2nd baseman.

If you move him to 1st base, he becomes a below-average hitter for the position.

If you want to make a move with Walker, then put him at 3B, where he would be an elite defender (similar to Carpenter), and his bat would still be competitive.

Deal Pedro for a legit starting pitcher.

Move Harrison and possibly Hanson by 2016 to 2B.

Now, you have a good fielding 3rd baseman, a good fielding SS (Mercer is above average), a good fielding 2nd baseman (Harrison is a good-not-great defender at the position), and a decent platoon at 1B. The infield will hit enough, particularly if Harrison can hit .280/.335/.450 with 50 XBH's and 20 SB's, and Mercer hits like he has for the past 2 months.

Plus, you have a legit arm in the rotation to join Cole, Morton, Locke and a number 5 next year, with Kingham and Taillon on the way.

You wouldn't be likely to get a starter for Pedro who is much better than the five guys they're already sending out there. I have no problem with trading him, but it has to be for somebody who would make a significant improvement to the team, because the team becomes a helluva lot weaker if Pedro goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:50 am 
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VanSlick wrote:
I agree with you almost all the time.

That speaks well for me, but has to cause you considerable concern.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:55 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
I have no problem with trading him, but it has to be for somebody who would make a significant improvement to the team, because the team becomes a helluva lot weaker if Pedro goes.

As you note, that depends on whom the Pirates get in return. I think most GM's have a favorable view of Pedro, and several realize that a 30 HR 3rd baseman with several years of control left is a tough find in today's game, so the Pirates should get a legitimate starting pitcher in return.

If the offer is for a lower tier SP'er, then pass.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:27 am 
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If Pedro had that much value, the would not be full of "trade Pedro!" scenarios.

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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:41 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
The reason why Walker is a plus player and gives positive WAR is because his hitting is so good for a 2nd baseman.

If you move him to 1st base, he becomes a below-average hitter for the position.

If you want to make a move with Walker, then put him at 3B, where he would be an elite defender (similar to Carpenter), and his bat would still be competitive.

Deal Pedro for a legit starting pitcher.

Move Harrison and possibly Hanson by 2016 to 2B.

Now, you have a good fielding 3rd baseman, a good fielding SS (Mercer is above average), a good fielding 2nd baseman (Harrison is a good-not-great defender at the position), and a decent platoon at 1B. The infield will hit enough, particularly if Harrison can hit .280/.335/.450 with 50 XBH's and 20 SB's, and Mercer hits like he has for the past 2 months.

Plus, you have a legit arm in the rotation to join Cole, Morton, Locke and a number 5 next year, with Kingham and Taillon on the way.


If it makes the team better what does it matter if Walker is just league avg for a 1B? He offers more than what the Pirates have been able to get from the position with a platoon.

2014 - Walker .775 OPS , Pirate 1Bs Combined .718 OPS, League avg 1B .762 OPS
2013 - Walker .757 OPS , Pirate 1Bs Combined .726 OPS, League avg 1B .762 OPS
2012 - Walker .768 OPS , Pirate 1Bs Combined .742 OPS, League avg 1B .767 OPS
2011 - Walker .742 OPS , Pirate 1Bs Combined .715 OPS, League avg 1B .778 OPS

The question is what would produce more....Walker and Jhay or Walker and a 1B Platoon?


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:45 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
If Pedro had that much value, the would not be full of "trade Pedro!" scenarios.

Pedro has quite a bit of value and is a good player, potentially a VERY good player. He is becoming a .250 hitter with a .340 OBP, and when he starts hitting HR's again (soon, we hope), he provides OBP, power, lefty bat, young, still under team control for 3 more seasons.

His issues stem from his declining defense related to throwing problems (something that can be fixed I suspect) and his present lack of power (over the past 78 games, just 8 HR's and 8 2B's). I have to believe that another team realizes that the power is there, and he is one of the few infielders available who can hit 30+ home runs while still under team control for more than a season.

Again, if the return is not a top-end SP'er, then just pass. I am not thrilled at the prospect of waiting until June of 2015 before upgrading the rotation with Kingham and Taillon, and then relying so heavily on two rookies, but it is what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Pedro has just 2 more seasons of arbitration.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:00 pm 
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If we believe it's fixable, why the rush to trade him? He's been great with the glove this season.

All of his holes that we rail against, other teams can see them too. I can't see the Bucs getting a top SP that isn't a half year rental for Alvarez.

I'd think a Pedro trade would net a Samardjiza type return.

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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:31 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
If we believe it's fixable, why the rush to trade him? He's been great with the glove this season.

The glove - yes.

The arm - no. Not good. Not even bad. His throwing has been horrible, accounting for 17 throwing errors in barely more than 1/2 a season.

Further, there is no "rush" to trade him. His value is much better this year than next due to years of control. If you wait until the July before his free agency, good luck getting fair return for him.

He is not going to re-sign with the Pirates. The HR potential will get him a $75 million contract. The Pirates are not going to pay him that much.

So the choices are:

(1) Let him play out his contract and get a draft pick in return.
(2) Deal him next year, where his value has declined.
(3) Deal him now, and get as good a return as possible, and in return get a solid starting pitcher who bolsters the rotation for a good team.

I say go with #3, and that option is NOT predicated on "hating Pedro" or anything of that nature; it is based solely on player value and return.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:43 pm 
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Who says no?

Pedro straight up for David Wright.


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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:49 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
If we believe it's fixable, why the rush to trade him? He's been great with the glove this season.

The glove - yes.

The arm - no. Not good. Not even bad. His throwing has been horrible, accounting for 17 throwing errors in barely more than 1/2 a season.

Further, there is no "rush" to trade him. His value is much better this year than next due to years of control. If you wait until the July before his free agency, good luck getting fair return for him.

He is not going to re-sign with the Pirates. The HR potential will get him a $75 million contract. The Pirates are not going to pay him that much.

So the choices are:

(1) Let him play out his contract and get a draft pick in return.
(2) Deal him next year, where his value has declined.
(3) Deal him now, and get as good a return as possible, and in return get a solid starting pitcher who bolsters the rotation for a good team.

I say go with #3, and that option is NOT predicated on "hating Pedro" or anything of that nature; it is based solely on player value and return.



My point is that other teams can see these glaring strikeout and throwing issues and while he may get paid on home runs, I don't think a team is going to give up much, like a good starter with some control left, in a trade.

I don't see the return for #3 being nearly as high as most of you, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:50 pm 
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val wrote:
Who says no?

Pedro straight up for David Wright.



Both teams. The Pirates probably don't want to pay $15 mil a year to a mid-30s 3B, which could turn into that albatross contract that a team like Pittsburgh can't weather. I guess I'd say that the Mets would probably say no quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: Outside the Box
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:53 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
If we believe it's fixable, why the rush to trade him? He's been great with the glove this season.

The glove - yes.

The arm - no. Not good. Not even bad. His throwing has been horrible, accounting for 17 throwing errors in barely more than 1/2 a season.

Further, there is no "rush" to trade him. His value is much better this year than next due to years of control. If you wait until the July before his free agency, good luck getting fair return for him.

He is not going to re-sign with the Pirates. The HR potential will get him a $75 million contract. The Pirates are not going to pay him that much.

So the choices are:

(1) Let him play out his contract and get a draft pick in return.
(2) Deal him next year, where his value has declined.
(3) Deal him now, and get as good a return as possible, and in return get a solid starting pitcher who bolsters the rotation for a good team.

I say go with #3, and that option is NOT predicated on "hating Pedro" or anything of that nature; it is based solely on player value and return.


I'm not agreeing with this at all. You don't know that he won't re-sign with the Pirates, and you don't know that he's going to get a $75 million contract. And I don't agree that his value is at his highest right now.

We need Pedro more than we need another starter. And if he puts up the kind of second half he usually does, he will be worth more this off-season than he is now.


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