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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:09 pm 
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SyrBucco wrote:
Anyone who says Big Papi isn't clutch just hasn't been paying attention.


James says quite the opposite. He pointed to Ortiz as one player who performed in "clutch" situations significantly better than his career performance.

That is, the stats show that Ortiz is "clutch." James is not convinced that "clutchness" is a skill, however, since he does not have the data to show that certain players do better in clutch situations year after year, or repeat their "clutch" performances from one season to the next.

The article I linked discusses these issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:30 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
SyrBucco wrote:
Anyone who says Big Papi isn't clutch just hasn't been paying attention.


James says quite the opposite. He pointed to Ortiz as one player who performed in "clutch" situations significantly better than his career performance.

That is, the stats show that Ortiz is "clutch." James is not convinced that "clutchness" is a skill, however, since he does not have the data to show that certain players do better in clutch situations year after year, or repeat their "clutch" performances from one season to the next.

The article I linked discusses these issues.


I'm not sure if James considers it a "skill" or not but their WS run in 2004 seemed like the Big Poppi show, delivering clutch hit after clutch hit. What I would ask is, do players play for stats or for the ring? If a player keeps winning games for you in the clutch, thats one heck of a skill in my book


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:39 pm 
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I think theres a human component here that cant be judged like bat speed or zone range.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:04 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I'm not sure if James considers it a "skill" or not but their WS run in 2004 seemed like the Big Poppi show, delivering clutch hit after clutch hit. What I would ask is, do players play for stats or for the ring? If a player keeps winning games for you in the clutch, thats one heck of a skill in my book


I understand your reasoning, but the problem with drawing conclusions based on limited sample size, or for a very small time frame, is that incorrect conclusions can be reached. For example: Brian Doyle, an eminently mediocre player, performs brilliantly in the 1978 World Series. Does that make him "clutch," since the Series is the biggest stage of all?

Or was he merely hot at the right time?

I will note that Roberto Clemente played in 14 World Series games. He had a hit in all 14. His hitting streak in the Series is longer than his career best hitting streak during the regular season - which was just 11 games.

Clemente was clutch. But as has been noted in this discussion, that is due in large part to the fact that he was a great hitter. Since he was a great hitter all the time, he was a great hitter in "clutch" situations.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:10 pm 
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Good point Bucfan... That is why it must be difficult to be a scout in baseball. You never can know what a player is going to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Good point Bucfan...


Words I love to hear. But the two words usually accompanying my screen name usually have a "you" as the second word.

CANNOT LET THREAD DIE ... CANNOT LET THREAD DIE ...


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:59 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Good point Bucfan...


Words I love to hear. But the two words usually accompanying my screen name usually have a "you" as the second word.

CANNOT LET THREAD DIE ... CANNOT LET THREAD DIE ...

If the Admins allowed some of the CIA guys back over, you would have no problem extending this thread to 100 if you want to debate the existence of "clutch".
I am in the distinct minority there when I claim that there are "clutch hitters".


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:08 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
I think theres a human component here that cant be judged like bat speed or zone range.


And therein lies the problem. If it can't be judged, how can it be valued? In other words, how do we know how much more to pay a player, or to give up in a trade for a player, based on this concept of "clutch"? And add on top of that that "clutch-ness" seems to vary greatly from year to year (hence why people have trouble considering it a skill).

Certainly, if I have two players of equal talents, with equal demands, things such as "clutch-ness", "good clubhouse guy", and other intangibles can serve as a deciding factor. But if player A can get on base more, slug more, play better defense, etc than player B, but player B is more "clutch", how do I decide which player to sign? Is "clutchness" worth 10 points in OPS? 50? 200? If it can't be judged than how can we accurately use it in valuing a player? And if it can't be used to value a player, what can it be used for?


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:19 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Kingston wrote:
I think theres a human component here that cant be judged like bat speed or zone range.


And therein lies the problem. If it can't be judged, how can it be valued? In other words, how do we know how much more to pay a player, or to give up in a trade for a player, based on this concept of "clutch"? And add on top of that that "clutch-ness" seems to vary greatly from year to year (hence why people have trouble considering it a skill).

Certainly, if I have two players of equal talents, with equal demands, things such as "clutch-ness", "good clubhouse guy", and other intangibles can serve as a deciding factor. But if player A can get on base more, slug more, play better defense, etc than player B, but player B is more "clutch", how do I decide which player to sign? Is "clutchness" worth 10 points in OPS? 50? 200? If it can't be judged than how can we accurately use it in valuing a player? And if it can't be used to value a player, what can it be used for?


Yeah, I've stayed out of this because it's been done here ad nauseum, people are entrenched in their beliefs, and nothing will change their opinion. But BBF pretty much hits the nail on the head for me, "clutchness" isn't a deciding factor for me when valuing a players ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Yeah, I've stayed out of this because it's been done here ad nauseum, people are entrenched in their beliefs, and nothing will change their opinion. But BBF pretty much hits the nail on the head for me, "clutchness" isn't a deciding factor for me when valuing a players ability.


Basically its an added bonus...like buying an old desk at a flea market and finding $20 in the bottom drawer

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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:26 pm 
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You know who's clutch?

Manny Ramirez. And he's just sitting out there, waiting for NH to call.

Code:
 I Split          G   GS    PA    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  IBB  SO  HBP  SH  SF ROE GDP  SB   CS   BA   OBP   SLG   OPS  BAbip tOPS+ Split
+-+------------+----+----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------------+
   2 outs, RISP  975       1236   968       304  62   3  71  483  254  94  218  14   0   0  10   0    4   4  .314  .463  .604 1.067  .343   114 2 outs, RISP
   Late & Close  940       1283  1029       284  56   3  53  195  229  67  263  12   2  11  10  34    6   3  .276  .410  .491  .901  .319    83 Late & Close
   Tie Game     1515       2355  1950       618 129   3 136  471  341  65  442  34   2  28  18  63   12   6  .317  .422  .595 1.017  .344   103 Tie Game     
   Within 1 R   1936       4500  3746      1186 261   8 259  870  651 113  808  53   2  48  33 118   25  16  .317  .420  .598 1.018  .340   103 Within 1 R   
   Within 2 R   2044       5998  5040      1578 345  11 342 1140  833 142 1106  65   2  58  43 152   30  23  .313  .413  .589 1.002  .339   100 Within 2 R   
   Within 3 R   2078       7074  5968      1878 400  16 408 1358  961 160 1294  75   2  68  55 183   32  25  .315  .412  .592 1.004  .339   100 Within 3 R   
   Within 4 R   2092       7742  6535      2052 440  16 446 1473 1048 175 1422  84   2  73  62 199   33  30  .314  .411  .591 1.002  .339   100 Within 4 R   
   Margin > 4 R  727       1264  1075       340  67   2  81  252  164  16  245  12   0  13   7  31    4   1  .316  .408  .608 1.017  .340   102 Margin > 4 R


Of course, all those numbers are pretty much in line with his overall career numbers.

Manny Ramirez Promo Idea #2: Tres Manni Piratas Bobblehead: Manny Mota/Manny Sanguillen/Manny Ramirez.

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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:40 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Yeah, I've stayed out of this because it's been done here ad nauseum, people are entrenched in their beliefs, and nothing will change their opinion. But BBF pretty much hits the nail on the head for me, "clutchness" isn't a deciding factor for me when valuing a players ability.


Basically its an added bonus...like buying an old desk at a flea market and finding $20 in the bottom drawer


Hey, I like that analogy!


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:44 pm 
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This is why you keep 80-year old special assisstants around like Tanner. You rely on their experience and observations to add that extra little touch.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:17 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Kingston wrote:
I think theres a human component here that cant be judged like bat speed or zone range.


And therein lies the problem. If it can't be judged, how can it be valued?


I didnt say it cant be judged. I was saying it cant be judged the way you would judge a traditional baseball skill. To believe that would mean it could be worked on, honed. But how does one work on a human attribute? Like integrity or character, can reliability under pressure be honed? We can look at a pitcher's mechanics and understand why he throws a ball fast. But how can we say with any certainty which human qualities contribute to a man's ability to perform at peak levels under pressure?

I believe that some men perform under pressure better than others. And not just in baseball. Business, entertainment. And I know from having watched baseball for many years, there are certain guys you just want up at that moment. Doesnt come with guarantees. Doesnt mean other talented players cant or wont get it done. It just means that some guys seem better wired for the occasion. To deny it is to deny human nature. Call them clutch, call them big game players. And you can place whatever value on that you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:40 am 
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That's a fine signature you have there Kojak.

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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:50 am 
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omgardd wrote:
That's a fine signature you have there Kojak.


Much nicer that the one "The Lumber Company" AKA "Punter" has on his...


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:58 am 
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omgardd wrote:
That's a fine signature you have there Kojak.

How proud you must be!

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Small ball is the hobgoblin of small minds.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
CANNOT LET THREAD DIE ... CANNOT LET THREAD DIE ...


Image


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Photoshop genius.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntington Must Go, Day #1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:04 pm 
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I almost puked when i saw that.Now its official this thread must die


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