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 Post subject: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:48 pm 
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I mean genuinely surprised.

I'm sure we'll see our share of Brian Bixlers and Romulo Sanchezs in response, but I'm asking the question in all earnestness. Is there a player or players from the steroid era (for the sake of argument, let's define that era as 1991-2005) you're convinced was clean?

Secondary question: who would you be most disappointed to learn did steroids?

To the first question, my answer is: no one. Sad but true. cf. my comments in the ARod thread.

To the second: I've grown more suspicious about Cal Ripken over the years, but I still think it would be devastating to the sport if it was revealed he used PEDs. Ditto Greg Maddux (on the disappointment part, not the suspicion).

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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:54 pm 
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Craig Counsell or David Eckstein.

I'd be most disappointed if I learned that Eddie Gaedel used PEDs in an effort to get back to "the Show."

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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:00 pm 
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I've thought Cal had to be on something to be able to go as long as he did with the consecutive games streak...

I remember a story where one night he got plowed over at 2nd base making a play finish the game and was on crutches the next day an hour or so prior to the game...

The only player over that span I tend to believe didnt juice was probably Tony Gwynn, he got bigger in his later years but it wasnt from steroids it was probably the buffet table

I dont doubt Griffey Jr. was on something for how many times he has bounced back from injuries over and over again...

I dont doubt Smoltz or Randy Johnson wasnt on something either to be as old as they are and still pitching with high velocity into their 40's after many surgeries on their pitching arms...

But who cares, dont lynch the players trying to do whatever to compete at a high level, go after Bud for letting it happen...

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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:42 pm 
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For pitchers that i think did are(not listing ones like Gagne and Clemens that have already been caught) Mark Prior, Jason Schmidt, Russ Ortiz, Matt Clement, Curt Schilling, Javier Vazquez, Chris Capuano, and Noah Lowry .They stick out pretty big to me, alot of pitchers will be coming soon i think.I think there were just as many pitchers as hitters.Now for the hitters(same thing doesn't included Bonds Mcquire and Sheiffield and the others who have already been caught) Jose Guillen, Sammy Sosa, Albert Pujols, Todd Helton, Vladimir Guerrero, Jim Edmonds, Carlos Delgado, Andruw Jones, Jim Thome, Geoff Jenkins, Magglio Ordonez, Miguel Tejada, Luis Gonzalez, Rich Aurilia, Mike Sweeney, Eric Chavez, Frank Thomas, and Adrian Beltre
I would be surprised to hear Ichiro, Ken Griffey Jr., Chipper Jones, Troy Glaus, Lance Berkman, Alfonso Soriano, Jeff Kent, Adam Dunn, and Moises Alou.

There are also some that i don't know where they would sit.They aren't ones that i put on the list of ones that i think did it but it wouldn't surprise me if their names showed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:48 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:

But who cares, dont lynch the players trying to do whatever to compete at a high level, go after Bud for letting it happen...


Bud is guilty, too. But I dont believe you should look the other way when someone breaks the law, whether someone had a powerful accomplice or not. It was practically management policy at Enron to skate the law, but all who did should be held accountable whether Ken Lay let it happen or not.

And no, I wouldnt be surprised to learn any player did steroids at this point, just as I am unwilling to assume anyone did without evidence.

And just a reminder; theyre going after Bonds for perjury. Giambi admitted use to the same grand jury and is facing no legal action.


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:50 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Bud is guilty, too. But I dont believe you should look the other way when someone breaks the law, whether someone had a powerful accomplice or not.



But the players prior to 2003 did not break any laws of the League

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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:53 pm 
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I assume that you are limiting this to power hitters. I'm sure a lot of pitchers did it too but it's really hard to say who did and who didn't. For example I would not have expected Andy Pettite. He's not even big.

But to answer your question, yes there is one slugger that I would be surprised to learn did steroids. Manny. He defies the profile of most baseball players that you would expect it from. If he did any drugs it was probably weed not steroids.


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:57 pm 
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To comment on the second portion of your post, I don't think anybody cares enough for it to be devastating, even if it was Cal Ripken Jr. Mark McGwire was already about as All-American wholesome feel-good story as it gets.

What I mean is that the fairy-tale image was shattered long ago. A large amount of players felt compelled to take performance-enhancing drugs. It is what it is and there's no getting around it. When this stuff first started coming out, it caused outrage and anger. At this point? It's just something that happened and most people are pretty much over it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:13 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Bud is guilty, too. But I dont believe you should look the other way when someone breaks the law, whether someone had a powerful accomplice or not.



But the players prior to 2003 did not break any laws of the League



Steroids have been part of baseball's banned substance list since 1991.

As far as Im concerned, the word "banned" is definitive. What clouds this issue, as has been mentioned before, is the fact that baseball had no punitive measures in place for any violation prior to '04. So while theres plenty of blame to share, does that make the banned substance list merely a suggestion? Or an unenforced rule/league law? Institutional cowardice has created a wonderful grey area for everyone involved to hide behind.


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:42 pm 
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I'd put more blame on MLB and the Commish's office then...

You made a rule but didnt enforce it at all...Not enforcing it made it ok for them to cheat...

If they were serious about it, testing would have been done earlier...Its looking more and more that people were out to black ball Bonds for a) setting the single season mark b) setting the all time record

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:49 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
I'd put more blame on MLB and the Commish's office then...

You made a rule but didnt enforce it at all...Not enforcing it made it ok for them to cheat...

If they were serious about it, testing would have been done earlier...Its looking more and more that people were out to black ball Bonds for a) setting the single season mark b) setting the all time record


Come on, Dan. Its about lying to a Grand Jury, not setting a record. If he had told the truth, like Giambi, he'd be fine legally speaking. He made a choice and now has to deal with the consequences of that choice.

But at least you admit they cheated.

And again, Im happy to hold everyones feet to the fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:27 pm 
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None of this started until after Bonds broke McGwire's record and was going for Hank's number...so I do see it as trying to black ball him, they just seemed to pick someone they knew was guilty...

Nothing would have been done until Congress stepped in...

The players are responsible for too, but theres too many to try and punish, thus I pin in on Bud Selig...I have not liked very many of his decisions over his tenure at all...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:41 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
they just seemed to pick someone they knew was guilty...



Whats wrong with that, the operative word being guilty?


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:43 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Bud is guilty, too. But I dont believe you should look the other way when someone breaks the law, whether someone had a powerful accomplice or not.



But the players prior to 2003 did not break any laws of the League


That is simply not true. The league may not have specifically mentioned steroids, but the CBA did state that the use of illegal drugs was a violation. In the United States, the use of steroids without a doctor's prescription is illegal, therefore using steroids unlawfully is a violation of the league's CBA with the union. It is a pet-peeve of mine when I hear this argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:10 am 
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I feel pretty good about saying I don't think Frank Thomas was ever on anything. The man was naturally built like a linebacker, I don't think he needed anything to hit the ball a ton.

I feel just as good about saying Brian Giles was on the juice during his tenure with the Pirates.

Ripken might have popped some greenies to keep his streak alive, but probably never any PED's.

Just my opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:22 am 
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omgardd wrote:
I feel pretty good about saying I don't think Frank Thomas was ever on anything. The man was naturally built like a linebacker, I don't think he needed anything to hit the ball a ton.

I feel just as good about saying Brian Giles was on the juice during his tenure with the Pirates.

Ripken might have popped some greenies to keep his streak alive, but probably never any PED's.

Just my opinions.


I agree with your comments on Thomas and Giles.
I also don't think there Ripken ever did a thing.I got the chance to meet him when i was playing in Highschool and he was rolling through the dirt and everything showing us how to do stuff.He loved the game and i really would be shocked to see him on any list for PED's or anything.That was in 2002 way after he retired also


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:06 am 
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Colin21 wrote:
For pitchers that i think did are(not listing ones like Gagne and Clemens that have already been caught) Mark Prior, Jason Schmidt, Russ Ortiz, Matt Clement, Curt Schilling, Javier Vazquez, Chris Capuano, and Noah Lowry .They stick out pretty big to me, alot of pitchers will be coming soon i think.I think there were just as many pitchers as hitters.Now for the hitters(same thing doesn't included Bonds Mcquire and Sheiffield and the others who have already been caught) Jose Guillen, Sammy Sosa, Albert Pujols, Todd Helton, Vladimir Guerrero, Jim Edmonds, Carlos Delgado, Andruw Jones, Jim Thome, Geoff Jenkins, Magglio Ordonez, Miguel Tejada, Luis Gonzalez, Rich Aurilia, Mike Sweeney, Eric Chavez, Frank Thomas, and Adrian Beltre
I would be surprised to hear Ichiro, Ken Griffey Jr., Chipper Jones, Troy Glaus, Lance Berkman, Alfonso Soriano, Jeff Kent, Adam Dunn, and Moises Alou.

There are also some that i don't know where they would sit.They aren't ones that i put on the list of ones that i think did it but it wouldn't surprise me if their names showed up.


Frank Thomas is the one guy I'd be surprised about. As for the list of guys you'd be surprised to hear about: Troy Glaus was caught.


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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:23 pm 
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Since no one else being named would be a surprise, how can we even have anyone named to the Hall of Fame? Even the people many don't think used, may also be guilty. Some surely are not yet known.

Remember it was the priests who abused little boys, a preacher who preached against homosexuality who got caught with a gey guy, it was the guy from PTL who was a criminal and womanizer.

All those good guys like Shilling could easily be in too.

Does the Hall just shut down for anyone who played in the Bonds era?

And indeed why is Bud excused from this blame. He and the owners might as well been supplying. They were so happy to rake in the funds from the additional fans they users brought to them, that they did nothing for as long as possible and then blame those bad players.

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 Post subject: Re: Is There Any Player You'd Be Surprised To Learn Did Steroids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:26 pm 
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A-Rod can't be a hero, nor can Bonds, Big Mac, Palmero,Ripkin,Clemmens,... who's left?

Sad position for baseball isn't it?

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
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