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 Post subject: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:14 am 
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Last night we had 2nd and 3rd nobody out, and Hurdle had Polanco running on contact. Davis hit the line drive to second and Polanco was doubled off. Martin followed with a fly ball that would have easily scored Polanco.

Although I'm not wild about the play, I can see running on contact when there is 1 out. But with zero outs that was a bonehead move.

Hurdle is always trying for some kind of gimmick like squeeze plays. They work sometimes, but if he would let his hitters hit, he would score more runs and win more games in the long run.

Then what was up with Mercer trying to advance on a popup to the catcher? I assume that one was on the first base coach.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:08 am 
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The play with Mercer was a set play to draw a throw to second. It would seem Marte missed the sign because as soon as the throw goes to second, he should be heading home and would score easily on the ensuing run down. I must agree that the team's base running is abysmal. You never know what Marte is going to do next. His baseball IQ is questionable no doubt. Needs some tutoring. When the Mercer play ended, Clint looked like he was about to stroke out in the dugout. Can't really blame him though. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:14 am 
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It's definitely frustrating to be throwing away outs all the time whether it's bad base running or dumb bunts.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:29 am 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
The play with Mercer was a set play to draw a throw to second. It would seem Marte missed the sign because as soon as the throw goes to second, he should be heading home and would score easily on the ensuing run down.


Yes, yes and yes.

Marte has to read that situation. Once he sees Mercer tagging at first base, he needs to edge down the line and break for home as soon as the throw goes to second. Missing the read and not breaking for home was mental mistake #1. Getting caught in "no man's land" and getting thrown out at third was mental mistake #2. Awful. Truly awful.

EDIT: of course, Marte also needs to tag up on the play. He starts edging down the line after the catch is made.

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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:46 pm 
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How did they have a set play? It's not like the popup was something you could plan for. And what's the chance of that succeeding, given that the ball never left the infield? Seems like they could just as easily thrown Marte out at home if he had headed home.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
How did they have a set play? It's not like the popup was something you could plan for.

The Pirates practiced this play in spring training. It is in effect with runners 1st and 3rd, no outs or one out, and involves pop-ups where the 1st baseman moves to get the ball. That means the runner on 1st can get a huge lead, and break for 2nd.

That forces an immediate throw to have any chance of getting the runner, at which point the runner on 3rd - who SHOULD be edging towards home - immediately breaks for home at full speed.

The time it takes to throw to 2nd, catch that throw, and then throw back to home plate is akin to the time it takes for a pitch to get to home plate and the C to deal the ball to 2nd on a stolen base - and those work out about 70% of the time, no?

Ralphie wrote:
And what's the chance of that succeeding, given that the ball never left the infield? Seems like they could just as easily thrown Marte out at home if he had headed home.

Ay, there's the rub.

This is the 2nd time the Pirates have tried the play - and it has failed both times. Both times, Marte was the runner on 3rd.

It seems he just does not "get" situations, or plays or anything requiring thought or planning.

Swing hard? Check. Run fast? Check. Throw hard? Check.

Analyze fielder position, cut-off position, angle of throw, number of outs and make a decision on whether or not to go?

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:44 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
How did they have a set play?


What Bucfan wrote . . . its not a "set" play in that the play is "called for" from the dugout in advance. It's a "set" play in that, if the situation presents itself, they run the play. I'm betting good money that it is only to be used with either Marte or Cutch at 3rd base and a runner with decent speed and some elusiveness at first base. Again, Marte must read the situation when Mercer goes back to first to tag up. Marte should then tag up and start walking down the line towards home and immediately break for home when the ball leaves the catcher's hand. As Bucfan noted, it is akin to trying a stolen base. The only caveat that I'd add is that, unlike a typical stolen base attempt, Marte should (and I obviously stress the word should) have a walking lead going down the line and he should get to full speed quicker than if he was starting from a stand still position - as when he is leading off from first base.

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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:21 pm 
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It's not anything close to stealing second, because both runners have to tag up. I maintain that had Marte tagged up and waited until the catcher threw to second before he took off, the infielder could easily return that throw to the plate in plenty of time to get him.

It falls into the "always looking for a gimmick" mindset of Clint Hurdle. He's over-managing. He should let his hitters hit, but he has no faith in them.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:46 pm 
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But the idea is for the runner at first to get in a rundown which allows the runner at third to score before Mercer is tagged out. Also, it may trigger a late throw to the plate which would allow Mercer to then end up at second. That said, it is not a play that I trust Marte to be able to ad lib on for the obvious reasons we saw last night. JMHO, but he seems to be a bit of a Nuke Laloosh type at this point in time……... :P :P :P


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:58 pm 
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I appreciate the fact that Marte can run like a deer. But why on earth would they try to effect a very tricky baserunning with a player who has demonstated time-after-time-after-time his "developing" baseball IQ. So I put this one on Hurdle, not Marte (I think he would have been out at the palte even if he immediately broke after the ball left the catcher).

It really is quite striking the variety of TOOTBLANS that Marte has had. Not just the standard pick-off or trying to stretch the single into a double. We are seeing every variation. Loved the double play on the popout that he could not locate in Tuesday's game. Looking around, pausing, wondering. Just LOOK AT THE COACH AND TAKE DIRECTION for god's sake. Classic.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:15 pm 
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Pirates need to KISS it on the bases.

http://hiddenvigorish.com/2014/06/pirates-need-to-kiss-it-on-the-bases/


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:37 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
How did they have a set play? It's not like the popup was something you could plan for.

The Pirates practiced this play in spring training. It is in effect with runners 1st and 3rd, no outs or one out, and involves pop-ups where the 1st baseman moves to get the ball. That means the runner on 1st can get a huge lead, and break for 2nd.



Image[/quote]

Wait a sec! That doesn't make sense! Do you mean the guy stands on the base and tags on the pop up? It's a tag play, if he goes to second without tagging it's an out.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:19 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Last night we had 2nd and 3rd nobody out, and Hurdle had Polanco running on contact. Davis hit the line drive to second and Polanco was doubled off. Martin followed with a fly ball that would have easily scored Polanco.

Although I'm not wild about the play, I can see running on contact when there is 1 out. But with zero outs that was a bonehead move.

Hurdle is always trying for some kind of gimmick like squeeze plays. They work sometimes, but if he would let his hitters hit, he would score more runs and win more games in the long run.

Then what was up with Mercer trying to advance on a popup to the catcher? I assume that one was on the first base coach.


Running on contact when on 3rd with less than 2 outs is for when the balls hit on the ground. You always make sure that a line drive goes through in that situation. That gaffe was 100% on Polanco, not Hurdle.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:16 am 
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Corsair wrote:
Wait a sec! That doesn't make sense! Do you mean the guy stands on the base and tags on the pop up? It's a tag play, if he goes to second without tagging it's an out.

Right, it's a tag play, but because the 1st baseman is 50' from the base, there is zero chance of throwing behind the runner immediately and putting him in a rundown.

The throw has to be to 2nd base, which is a lot further from home plate. If the throw is made, then the guy just goes back to 1st or (in the right situation) gets into a rundown.

If the 1st baseman is near the bag, it won't work since the fielder simply guns the ball to the 1st baseman, and the rundown ensues, while the fielders watch the guy on 3rd.

You want the throw to 2nd, the runner on 1st stopping, the hesitation as the SS or 2nd baseman looks to see who can take his throw, and the runner on 3rd off LIKE THAT so he uses the two long throws and the very slight delay to score.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:34 pm 
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So all this talk, and it comes to this.

You are talking about two very inexperienced players. 'Nuff said.

Hell, Cutch even goofed last night.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:12 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
You are talking about two very inexperienced players. 'Nuff said.


Marte's base-running transcends a lack of MLB experience (not to mention, I don't consider over 1000 PAs "very inexperienced"). The type of routine mistakes that are made should not be something that comes with a big league learning curve, they should already be intuitive. Something like last year's CS% would hold more weight to the "experience" argument. Young players come up, even ones who's primary tool is plus-plus speed (Billy Hamilton leads the league in CS), and they're facing the best defensive catchers in the world ... it isn't like running wild on catchers in the minors, some of which might be 5-6 years older as organization depth pieces. Marte seems to lack basic fundamentals on the basepaths and goes through stretches where it's not uncommon to get picked off a base.

I'm not saying he isn't young/talented enough to correct that. In fact, I'm optimistic that he will. But I'm far from confident in just saying "he'll figure it out because he's inexperienced". There's a bigger problem there.


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 Post subject: Re: Baserunning
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:30 pm 
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The problem is that he has never had to worry about these things before. And, not all of the outs have been his doing. A few high profile ones, yes, but several are on players around him.

ZM

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