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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:31 pm 
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Aside from the existence of the Cy Young Award, one of the biggest arguments against pitchers winning MVP is the idea that a staff ace plays only once every five days, whereas the best position players are on the field daily. This seems like a reasonable point of view, until you consider how many batters a top pitcher faces over the course of a season. Adam Wainwright led the majors last season with 956 batters faced. Meanwhile, the leader in plate appearances was Joey Votto, with 726.


That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Everyday players are in the field 9 innings each game and have to make plays on a daily basis.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:10 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Pitchers have their own trophy. Take it away, or give one to hitters, and I'm all for pitchers winning the MVP. But when you come right down to it, it's very difficult to provide as much value in 30 odd games as a hitter does in 155.


9/10 scenarios I agree with you. The 10th I go with Val.

This year the 'best' hitters are on non-playoff teams (Goldy and Stanton; Tulo). Cutch is the closest great hitter on a playoff-contending team.

While it's true that taking Goldy/Stanton/Tulo off of their teams makes them significantly worse, taking an Ace like Kershaw off the Dodgers knocks them out of the playoffs, too.

Kershaw has been other-worldly in 2014. It's not like he's posting a regular CY caliber season vs. a slew of viable MVP candidates (like a Braun, Votto, Posey, etc.).

If he finishes as well as he has started, and Cutch or another player on a playoff-caliber team doesn't go on a tear then giving an SP an MVP is justifiable.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:34 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:

While it's true that taking Goldy/Stanton/Tulo off of their teams makes them significantly worse, taking an Ace like Kershaw off the Dodgers knocks them out of the playoffs, too...



Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout disagree with this assessment.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:41 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:

While it's true that taking Goldy/Stanton/Tulo off of their teams makes them significantly worse, taking an Ace like Kershaw off the Dodgers knocks them out of the playoffs, too...



Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout disagree with this assessment.

ZM


:?:

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:46 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:

While it's true that taking Goldy/Stanton/Tulo off of their teams makes them significantly worse, taking an Ace like Kershaw off the Dodgers knocks them out of the playoffs, too...



Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout disagree with this assessment.

ZM


:?:


Oops, quoted the wrong line.

Try this instead:
Quote:
This year the 'best' hitters are on non-playoff teams (Goldy and Stanton; Tulo). Cutch is the closest great hitter on a playoff-contending team.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:50 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Oops, quoted the wrong line.

Try this instead:
Quote:
This year the 'best' hitters are on non-playoff teams (Goldy and Stanton; Tulo). Cutch is the closest great hitter on a playoff-contending team.


Ah. Touche.

I should have added... the 'best' NL hitters...

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:44 am 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Quote:
Aside from the existence of the Cy Young Award, one of the biggest arguments against pitchers winning MVP is the idea that a staff ace plays only once every five days, whereas the best position players are on the field daily. This seems like a reasonable point of view, until you consider how many batters a top pitcher faces over the course of a season. Adam Wainwright led the majors last season with 956 batters faced. Meanwhile, the leader in plate appearances was Joey Votto, with 726.


That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Everyday players are in the field 9 innings each game and have to make plays on a daily basis.

Except that field players can have zero impact on a game.

For instance, I wanted to see if there were any games where I could have been the replacement player for Cutch and the game result would have been the same. I found the June 20th game at the Cubbies (we lost 6-3) where Cutch went 0-4, struck out twice, didn't advance any runners, recorded no outs, and near as I could tell, fielded one single when no one was on base. Admittedly, it was about the seventh 0-fer game that I had to look at to see little impact in the field, but as near as I can tell, Cutch could have been sitting on his ass all game.

Pitchers simply don't have that luxury. If they're off, well, they've lost the game and if they're on, the opposing team really can't do much about it. While the quarterback is the most important player in team sports, the pitcher is the most important position. And great pitchers ought to be counted when it comes time for awarding MVPs.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:20 pm 
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val wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
Quote:
Aside from the existence of the Cy Young Award, one of the biggest arguments against pitchers winning MVP is the idea that a staff ace plays only once every five days, whereas the best position players are on the field daily. This seems like a reasonable point of view, until you consider how many batters a top pitcher faces over the course of a season. Adam Wainwright led the majors last season with 956 batters faced. Meanwhile, the leader in plate appearances was Joey Votto, with 726.


That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Everyday players are in the field 9 innings each game and have to make plays on a daily basis.

Except that field players can have zero impact on a game.

For instance, I wanted to see if there were any games where I could have been the replacement player for Cutch and the game result would have been the same. I found the June 20th game at the Cubbies (we lost 6-3) where Cutch went 0-4, struck out twice, didn't advance any runners, recorded no outs, and near as I could tell, fielded one single when no one was on base. Admittedly, it was about the seventh 0-fer game that I had to look at to see little impact in the field, but as near as I can tell, Cutch could have been sitting on his ass all game.

Pitchers simply don't have that luxury. If they're off, well, they've lost the game and if they're on, the opposing team really can't do much about it. While the quarterback is the most important player in team sports, the pitcher is the most important position. And great pitchers ought to be counted when it comes time for awarding MVPs.


Ok, so four Pirates starting pitchers had no impact on the game either. Cutch plays 150+ games each season. A healthy starting pitcher throws in 33-35 games. If a starting pitcher were perfect and had a 35-0 record there is a possibility of a 35-127 record. The pitcher has ZERO...none...impact on the other 127 games. An everyday regular can turn a double play, draw a walk, have a 12 pitch at bat to tire a pitcher, throw out a baserunner, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:17 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
val wrote:
Pitchers simply don't have that luxury. If they're off, well, they've lost the game and if they're on, the opposing team really can't do much about it. While the quarterback is the most important player in team sports, the pitcher is the most important position. And great pitchers ought to be counted when it comes time for awarding MVPs.


Ok, so four Pirates starting pitchers had no impact on the game either. Cutch plays 150+ games each season. A healthy starting pitcher throws in 33-35 games. If a starting pitcher were perfect and had a 35-0 record there is a possibility of a 35-127 record. The pitcher has ZERO...none...impact on the other 127 games. An everyday regular can turn a double play, draw a walk, have a 12 pitch at bat to tire a pitcher, throw out a baserunner, etc.


Ya, I'd say in one individual game you can argue the starter is the most important player on the team pretty easily, but looking at a season-long award it makes little sense to me to have a pitcher win - no matter how valuable he is in that ~20% of games.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:08 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Ok, so four Pirates starting pitchers had no impact on the game either. Cutch plays 150+ games each season. A healthy starting pitcher throws in 33-35 games. If a starting pitcher were perfect and had a 35-0 record there is a possibility of a 35-127 record. The pitcher has ZERO...none...impact on the other 127 games. An everyday regular can turn a double play, draw a walk, have a 12 pitch at bat to tire a pitcher, throw out a baserunner, etc.


That hypothetical proves the SP as 'most valuable' though.

If a team goes 0-127 when SP X doesn't throw, but then 35-0 when he does, he's clearly the best/most valuable player on said team, because it stands to reason that without SP X team X doesn't win a game (no matter how good their other individual players are).

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:22 pm 
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val wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
Quote:
Aside from the existence of the Cy Young Award, one of the biggest arguments against pitchers winning MVP is the idea that a staff ace plays only once every five days, whereas the best position players are on the field daily. This seems like a reasonable point of view, until you consider how many batters a top pitcher faces over the course of a season. Adam Wainwright led the majors last season with 956 batters faced. Meanwhile, the leader in plate appearances was Joey Votto, with 726.


That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Everyday players are in the field 9 innings each game and have to make plays on a daily basis.

Except that field players can have zero impact on a game.

For instance, I wanted to see if there were any games where I could have been the replacement player for Cutch and the game result would have been the same. I found the June 20th game at the Cubbies (we lost 6-3) where Cutch went 0-4, struck out twice, didn't advance any runners, recorded no outs, and near as I could tell, fielded one single when no one was on base. Admittedly, it was about the seventh 0-fer game that I had to look at to see little impact in the field, but as near as I can tell, Cutch could have been sitting on his ass all game.

Pitchers simply don't have that luxury. If they're off, well, they've lost the game and if they're on, the opposing team really can't do much about it. While the quarterback is the most important player in team sports, the pitcher is the most important position. And great pitchers ought to be counted when it comes time for awarding MVPs.

Zero impact on games perfectly describes a pitcher in four out of every five games.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:24 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
Ok, so four Pirates starting pitchers had no impact on the game either. Cutch plays 150+ games each season. A healthy starting pitcher throws in 33-35 games. If a starting pitcher were perfect and had a 35-0 record there is a possibility of a 35-127 record. The pitcher has ZERO...none...impact on the other 127 games. An everyday regular can turn a double play, draw a walk, have a 12 pitch at bat to tire a pitcher, throw out a baserunner, etc.


That hypothetical proves the SP as 'most valuable' though.

If a team goes 0-127 when SP X doesn't throw, but then 35-0 when he does, he's clearly the best/most valuable player on said team, because it stands to reason that without SP X team X doesn't win a game (no matter how good their other individual players are).

LOL. No, it proves that he's absolutely worthless 80% of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:19 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
LOL. No, it proves that he's absolutely worthless 80% of the time.


Right, but in this hypothetical he's 100% 'valuable' that other 20% of the time. Meanwhile the entire rest of the team have proven themselves 0% 'valuable' the [majority] 80% of the time ---> since they do not win games.

Also, I assume this scenario is depending on the quality of the SP. Sometimes (often times) quality > quantity.

If the SP who goes 35-0 also posts a 2-to-2.50 ERA with around 220-240 IP and 200+ K's [and a low WHIP] then he's not just some guy 'getting lucky' 35 times, he's the difference between his team winning and losing when he pitches (and in this hypothetical, ever since team X goes 0-127 when SP X doesn't pitch).

There's really no measurement that tells who how much worth or what percentage of impact position players have in the 100+ games they play in. The closest metric available is WAR/VORP/etc.

To me, this is a situation sort of like a 'blue chip' Div/Y vs. 'hot' growth stock. You can invest 10k in a 'slow burn' and 'steady' stock like say... IBM... (position player, more 'impact' and/or 'stability') and receive moderate growth in the realm of maybe 2-to-5% a year (more if you're 'lucky') or you can put 2.5k in a non-div stock like say... TSLA... (an SP who only throws 35 times max) and you may see insane profits off of low investment.

In that scenario... 2-5% of 10k is only $2-500 whereas you can very well double or triple your investment of 2.5k. It isn't a perfect comparison, obviously, but that's more or less how I would compare it.

But back to the hypothetical posted, something in use 100% of the time that only produces worth 20% of time (0% in the 80% when SP X doesn't pitch) clearly proves that SP X who provides 100% 'value' even only 20% of the time is more 'valuable'.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:26 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
If the SP who goes 35-0 also posts a 2-to-2.50 ERA with around 220-240 IP and 200+ K's [and a low WHIP] then he's not just some guy 'getting lucky' 35 times, he's the difference between his team winning and losing when he pitches (and in this hypothetical, ever since team X goes 0-127 when SP X doesn't pitch).

Maybe they're doing tons of stuff to help win games, but the other pitchers completely suck. Maybe for some reason the batting order only produced when your guy was on the mound. Maybe a hundred different things.

Quote:
There's really no measurement that tells who how much worth or what percentage of impact position players have in the 100+ games they play in. The closest metric available is WAR/VORP/etc.

There isn't one for pitchers, either. Nothing that comes close to the metrics we have to measure what impact hitters have. None for defense that I've seen so far at all.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:27 pm 
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New York Mets called up former Pirates farmhand Dilson Herrera. 2B prospect traded last year as part of the Marlon Byrd deal.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:55 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
New York Mets called up former Pirates farmhand Dilson Herrera. 2B prospect traded last year as part of the Marlon Byrd deal.


Coming straight from AA where he was slashing .333/.401/.544. This is NH's willingness to do something stupid but not insane coming to fruition.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:25 am 
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Yes. And a perfect example of why doing that on a yearly basis is a poor way to run a small market club.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:16 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Yes. And a perfect example of why doing that on a yearly basis is a poor way to run a small market club.


Hold on. Herrera hasn't tasted any big league success yet. I bet he will struggle. I saw him this summer in Harrisburg, and I wasn't impressed with him in the field.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:04 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Yes. And a perfect example of why doing that on a yearly basis is a poor way to run a small market club.

except that last year Byrd helped us to the playoffs and one of the greatest nights in Pittsburgh sports playoff history. As of right now, I'll still take the tradeoff...


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 Post subject: Re: The 2014 Other Teams/Players Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:28 pm 
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I was fine with them doing it last year, they just can't do it every year if they want anything sustainable. They have a nice pool of talent, but it's not THAT deep.

At this point their lone "extra" piece that would have trade value is Harold Ramirez.

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