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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:16 pm 
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I just want to add about players like Sheets and Dunn. Yes, the fans would appreciate having players like that here and it would make the team better. Maybe even good enough to get the Pirates over .500. But what if they flop? What if they are hurt all the time? What if their skills erode faster than expected? Then you are stuck with contracts of players that have no value which limits what you can do when the time comes to be able to win. It's a pretty big risk to make in order to make the fans temporarily happy. Those kind of signings need to be made when the future is in place to help take the next step which is playoffs and division titles, not .500.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:42 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
For me, its not about $$$. Hey, its not my money. For me, its about playing time. I dont want a rental to take time away from a kid who may play a role in our future.


Interesting....coming from someone who advocates bringing in Pedro Martinez. I know you said you don't view any of our young pitchers as being part of the future, but I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion at this point. And if that IS the case you must be very upset with the return we got for Nady and Bay. And above in your quote you say "...a kid who MAY play a role..." Well again, how do you know Ohlendorf, etc. WON'T play a role. Maybe you have a special crystal ball or something...

Anyway, I agree with your above statement. If you do nothing else this year(and chances are they won't) you've got to find out about some of these guys.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:01 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Kingston wrote:
For me, its not about $$$. Hey, its not my money. For me, its about playing time. I dont want a rental to take time away from a kid who may play a role in our future.


Interesting....coming from someone who advocates bringing in Pedro Martinez. I know you said you don't view any of our young pitchers as being part of the future, but I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion at this point. And if that IS the case you must be very upset with the return we got for Nady and Bay. And above in your quote you say "...a kid who MAY play a role..." Well again, how do you know Ohlendorf, etc. WON'T play a role. Maybe you have a special crystal ball or something...

Anyway, I agree with your above statement. If you do nothing else this year(and chances are they won't) you've got to find out about some of these guys.


Why would I be upset with the return for Nady and Bay? I like Tabata, Moss, Morris and Laroche.

And yes, since you can play the "no one can see the future" game all you want, no one can state conclusively that any young player wont go on to be an MVP or Cy Young winner. I dont find that a very compelling argument, but if I need that crystal ball to dispute it, then you win, as long as you understand that forfeits your right to prioritize your minor league talent.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:21 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
I just want to add about players like Sheets and Dunn. Yes, the fans would appreciate having players like that here and it would make the team better. Maybe even good enough to get the Pirates over .500. But what if they flop? What if they are hurt all the time? What if their skills erode faster than expected? Then you are stuck with contracts of players that have no value which limits what you can do when the time comes to be able to win. It's a pretty big risk to make in order to make the fans temporarily happy. Those kind of signings need to be made when the future is in place to help take the next step which is playoffs and division titles, not .500.


Ben Sheets has been on the Disabled List lots in the past few seasons...its a big risk for a team like the Pirates

Quote:
The Rangers remain deeply concerned about the medical reports. Sheets had a right flexor tendon injury at the end of last season, and that has scared off a number of teams in their pursuit of a pitcher who otherwise would have been one of the top free agents on the market this offseason.


Quote:
Sheets was 13-9 with a 3.09 ERA in 31 starts and 198 1/3 innings for the Brewers last year, but he had a partial tear in his right elbow at the end of the season and did not pitch in the playoffs. He has been on the disabled list five times in the past four years. The Rangers put 14 pitchers on the disabled list in 2008, crushing their chances of being competitive in the American League West.


http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... &fext=.jsp

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:56 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Willton wrote:
jabram wrote:
I believe that the past 15 years have established that prospects are not, generally, what they receive from other teams when the big name player leaves the Burgh.

The players that they have received this year, last year and all of the other years seldom pay off as being valued members of the staff. Weigh Bay, Sanchez and Nady against Jose Hernandez, Matt Bruback, Bobby Hill Mark Redman, Arthur Rhodes, Brian Rogers Marino Salas, Kevin Roberts Armando Rios, Ryan Vogelsong, Tony McKnight, Paul Weichald and Jason Boyd.

The Pirates moves from last year, I would submit, may bring one fair pitcher and one utility player. They had birds in hand and now, I fear, they only have bird poo.

The last 15 years were not run by Neal Huntington and Frank Coonelly. Further, the trades of Huntington and Coonelly have been starkly different compared to those of their predecessors with regard to what the Pirates received in return. Jose Tabata, Andy LaRoche and Brian Morris have much higher ceilings compared to players like Ty Wigginton, Ryan Vogelsong and Bobby Hill. It is not fair to impute the failures of McClatchy, Littlefield, and Bonifay upon Huntington and Coonelly.

Further, the "birds in hand" were going to become "bird poo" if we had held onto them much longer, both in performance (Nady) and trade value (Bay, Nady and Marte). When your team is a loser and is trying to rebuild, the value of having a good prospect for a long period of time outweighs the value of having a good player or even a star player for a short period of time. The A's, Twins and Braves have proven this time and time again.



Image

Indeed. I should just refer to this post and others like it next time we have someone offer the "We've seen this happen for 15 years" argument as if it's never been presented before.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Why would I be upset with the return for Nady and Bay? I like Tabata, Moss, Morris and Laroche.

And yes, since you can play the "no one can see the future" game all you want, no one can state conclusively that any young player wont go on to be an MVP or Cy Young winner. I dont find that a very compelling argument, but if I need that crystal ball to dispute it, then you win, as long as you understand that forfeits your right to prioritize your minor league talent.


In another thread you stated you'd love to see them get Pedro Martinez because you don't think any of the Pirates young pitchers whose spot he would take will amount to anything. Then in this thread you state that you don't want a rental player to take the spot of a young guy who MAY help in the future. I contest that Gorzo, Ohlendorf, Duke, Karstens, McCutcheon all MAY help them in the future. I'm wondering how you know Moss MAY help in the future but Ohlendorf, for example, won't. At this point, since no major additions were made, you may as well take a look at ALL the young guys you can and see which ones will help you in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:42 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Willton wrote:
Jose Tabata, Andy LaRoche and Brian Morris have much higher ceilings compared to players like Ty Wigginton, Ryan Vogelsong and Bobby Hill.


I disagree. Bobby Hill was supposed to be the second coming of Ryne Sandberg in Chicago. As Hill was hopping back and forth from Iowa to Chicago his stock was really starting to slip. The writing was on the wall that Hill wasn't going to be a good MLB player. I get the same feeling with Andy LaRoche. He was supposed to be the next big thing in LA. When the trade went through Dodger fans were happy to see him go. I haven't completely given up on LaRoche but I'm certainly not punching his All-Star ticket any time soon.

Vogelsong was supposed to anchor the rotation with his rocket arm.

The only guy that really excites me is Tabata. Ok, I'm not that excited for him but at least the jury is still out on him.

There was nothing in Bobby Hill's minor league record that said Ryne Sandberg. Any proclamations that Hill would be such a player were made in ignorance. The same cannot be said about Andy LaRoche: his minor league record is sparkling.

I forgot that Vogelsong was considered a good prospect until his TJ surgery, although the injury that required said surgery could have been predicted given the heavy number of innings the Giants had him pitch in 1999, 2000, and 2001. However, how much Vogelsong's "rocket arm" (his fastball was only in the low-90's) was going to anchor the Pirates rotation at the time is debatable, as his major league service time with the Giants did not portend great things, especially given how much he was walking batters in 2001.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:35 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Why would I be upset with the return for Nady and Bay? I like Tabata, Moss, Morris and Laroche.

And yes, since you can play the "no one can see the future" game all you want, no one can state conclusively that any young player wont go on to be an MVP or Cy Young winner. I dont find that a very compelling argument, but if I need that crystal ball to dispute it, then you win, as long as you understand that forfeits your right to prioritize your minor league talent.


In another thread you stated you'd love to see them get Pedro Martinez because you don't think any of the Pirates young pitchers whose spot he would take will amount to anything. Then in this thread you state that you don't want a rental player to take the spot of a young guy who MAY help in the future. I contest that Gorzo, Ohlendorf, Duke, Karstens, McCutcheon all MAY help them in the future.


I dont. I thought I made that clear already. And your counter to that is that no one can predict the future, which means we cant be dismissive of any bum at any time, which i responded to above. How many more times do you wanna go back and forth on this?


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:13 am 
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You gotta watch posting any criticism of the Buccos on this board....that is why I have stopped posting on a regular basis. When one questions the wisdom of the "trades", and what we got in return, one is told he is not "true fan".

When one posts his displeasure after almost two decades of losing seasons, one is told he is not a "true fan".

When one mentions how boring the bucs were the last half of last year, compared to how much fun they were to watch in the beginning of the year when they had some offense, one is not a "true fan". One must be patient, we are told, while these "prospects" develop, and as soon as they do we can trade them away for some more "prospects".

The Kool Aid drinkers point to all the young "stud" prospects they have procured.....especially the saviour Alverez who has shown how committed he is by being 40 pounds overweight and now possibly with a bad knee. One of the slam bang pitchers they recieved in the "trades", Karsten, now has a sore elbow, just like all of the other Bucco pitchers. These same guys are silent when it is revealed they signed Adam LaRoche to a 7 million dollar contract while the Yanks are paying Nady 6.5 Million. Great.

It is obvious by the questioning at the Piratefest that there seem to be more disenfranchised "bad fans" than there is Kool Aid drinkers. It's about time.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:18 am 
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I am also sick of some of the "fans" on this site. They jump on anyone who gives any criticism to how to the bucs are being run. They just smile and shake their heads and agree with everthing pirates management does and they did the same with littlefield, and tracy. All fans have a right to call out their team after 16 straight losing seasons, and some of the dumbest moves in baseball history. Now im not saying the bay and nady trades were total garbage because it is to early to say that they were. Im just sick of the lack of criticsm on this team and im glad more fans are speaking out.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:23 am 
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Steve1118 wrote:
You gotta watch posting any criticism of the Buccos on this board....that is why I have stopped posting on a regular basis. When one questions the wisdom of the "trades", and what we got in return, one is told he is not "true fan".

When one posts his displeasure after almost two decades of losing seasons, one is told he is not a "true fan".

When one mentions how boring the bucs were the last half of last year, compared to how much fun they were to watch in the beginning of the year when they had some offense, one is not a "true fan". One must be patient, we are told, while these "prospects" develop, and as soon as they do we can trade them away for some more "prospects".

The Kool Aid drinkers point to all the young "stud" prospects they have procured.....especially the saviour Alverez who has shown how committed he is by being 40 pounds overweight and now possibly with a bad knee. One of the slam bang pitchers they recieved in the "trades", Karsten, now has a sore elbow, just like all of the other Bucco pitchers. These same guys are silent when it is revealed they signed Adam LaRoche to a 7 million dollar contract while the Yanks are paying Nady 6.5 Million. Great.

It is obvious by the questioning at the Piratefest that there seem to be more disenfranchised "bad fans" than there is Kool Aid drinkers. It's about time.


Show me where a member on this board said another was not a "true fan" because of their dissatisfaction with management.

Karsten has a sore elbow, right? Ask Mike Gonzalez how his 2007 season went after the Pirates traded him to the Braves. Did Dave Littlefield bilk John Schuerholz in that trade?

Pitchers get hurt,

And the reason everyone is silent about Nady and LaRoche getting what they are getting is because these people understand how arbitration works and how the salaries are determined. You don't.

So you keep not posting and we will keep drinking the kool aid. It's probably better for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:10 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
You gotta watch posting any criticism of the Buccos on this board....that is why I have stopped posting on a regular basis. When one questions the wisdom of the "trades", and what we got in return, one is told he is not "true fan".

When one posts his displeasure after almost two decades of losing seasons, one is told he is not a "true fan".

When one mentions how boring the bucs were the last half of last year, compared to how much fun they were to watch in the beginning of the year when they had some offense, one is not a "true fan". One must be patient, we are told, while these "prospects" develop, and as soon as they do we can trade them away for some more "prospects".

The Kool Aid drinkers point to all the young "stud" prospects they have procured.....especially the saviour Alverez who has shown how committed he is by being 40 pounds overweight and now possibly with a bad knee. One of the slam bang pitchers they recieved in the "trades", Karsten, now has a sore elbow, just like all of the other Bucco pitchers. These same guys are silent when it is revealed they signed Adam LaRoche to a 7 million dollar contract while the Yanks are paying Nady 6.5 Million. Great.

It is obvious by the questioning at the Piratefest that there seem to be more disenfranchised "bad fans" than there is Kool Aid drinkers. It's about time.


Show me where a member on this board said another was not a "true fan" because of their dissatisfaction with management.

Karsten has a sore elbow, right? Ask Mike Gonzalez how his 2007 season went after the Pirates traded him to the Braves. Did Dave Littlefield bilk John Schuerholz in that trade?

Pitchers get hurt,

And the reason everyone is silent about Nady and LaRoche getting what they are getting is because these people understand how arbitration works and how the salaries are determined. You don't.

So you keep not posting and we will keep drinking the kool aid. It's probably better for everyone.


I can say that it has happened to me.Not from any of you guys that are the heads of the board but from other members i couldn't track down what topic it was posted in but i had some displeasure with our non-activity in free agency and i got told i should just leave if i am here for team bashing.which i am not.if its to be positive ill be positive if its negative ill be negative.if i get called a team basher it doesn't hurt me i just don't get why all this arguing got started by Bulls Hitter or whatever his name was because im sure this is what he would want.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:39 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Why would I be upset with the return for Nady and Bay? I like Tabata, Moss, Morris and Laroche.

And yes, since you can play the "no one can see the future" game all you want, no one can state conclusively that any young player wont go on to be an MVP or Cy Young winner. I dont find that a very compelling argument, but if I need that crystal ball to dispute it, then you win, as long as you understand that forfeits your right to prioritize your minor league talent.


In another thread you stated you'd love to see them get Pedro Martinez because you don't think any of the Pirates young pitchers whose spot he would take will amount to anything. Then in this thread you state that you don't want a rental player to take the spot of a young guy who MAY help in the future. I contest that Gorzo, Ohlendorf, Duke, Karstens, McCutcheon all MAY help them in the future. I'm wondering how you know Moss MAY help in the future but Ohlendorf, for example, won't. At this point, since no major additions were made, you may as well take a look at ALL the young guys you can and see which ones will help you in the future.


Why do you insist on bringing Zach Duke's name into discussions about the signing of Pedro Martinez or any other free agent pitcher blocking one of our young guys? Am I REALLY the only one here who has seen enough of Zach Duke to know that he does not belong in ours or anybody's rotation?

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:56 am 
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omgardd wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Why would I be upset with the return for Nady and Bay? I like Tabata, Moss, Morris and Laroche.

And yes, since you can play the "no one can see the future" game all you want, no one can state conclusively that any young player wont go on to be an MVP or Cy Young winner. I dont find that a very compelling argument, but if I need that crystal ball to dispute it, then you win, as long as you understand that forfeits your right to prioritize your minor league talent.


In another thread you stated you'd love to see them get Pedro Martinez because you don't think any of the Pirates young pitchers whose spot he would take will amount to anything. Then in this thread you state that you don't want a rental player to take the spot of a young guy who MAY help in the future. I contest that Gorzo, Ohlendorf, Duke, Karstens, McCutcheon all MAY help them in the future. I'm wondering how you know Moss MAY help in the future but Ohlendorf, for example, won't. At this point, since no major additions were made, you may as well take a look at ALL the young guys you can and see which ones will help you in the future.


Why do you insist on bringing Zach Duke's name into discussions about the signing of Pedro Martinez or any other free agent pitcher blocking one of our young guys? Am I REALLY the only one here who has seen enough of Zach Duke to know that he does not belong in ours or anybody's rotation?

Yes, because other teams would pick him up as a fifth starter in a heartbeat.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:14 am 
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Kingston wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Why would I be upset with the return for Nady and Bay? I like Tabata, Moss, Morris and Laroche.

And yes, since you can play the "no one can see the future" game all you want, no one can state conclusively that any young player wont go on to be an MVP or Cy Young winner. I dont find that a very compelling argument, but if I need that crystal ball to dispute it, then you win, as long as you understand that forfeits your right to prioritize your minor league talent.


In another thread you stated you'd love to see them get Pedro Martinez because you don't think any of the Pirates young pitchers whose spot he would take will amount to anything. Then in this thread you state that you don't want a rental player to take the spot of a young guy who MAY help in the future. I contest that Gorzo, Ohlendorf, Duke, Karstens, McCutcheon all MAY help them in the future. [/quot

I dont. I thought I made that clear already. And your counter to that is that no one can predict the future, which means we cant be dismissive of any bum at any time, which i responded to above. How many more times do you wanna go back and forth on this?


Made it clear? You were one of the people who thought bringing in Pedro was a great idea because, and I'm paraphrasing, our young pitchers who he would block all suck. Now you say you don't want rental guys blocking the young players. Well what the hell do you think bringing in Pedro would do to our young pitchers who we need to find out about???
Thus I made the reference to you having a crystal ball. My point is how can you say that our young pitchers have already shown they are not worth the time but apparently position players like Moss, Laroche, etc. have not. You say it in your post above. "We can't be dismissive of any bum..." I ask you...how can you already say that the guys we got from the Yankees are bums. Maybe Karstens has pitched enough to lead you to say that but the others??? I would counter that Andy Laroche has looked like the biggest bum of anyone. Are we done with him too?

MY point is that this is the perfect year to find out about as many young guys as you can. You agree except that you apparently have already dismissed most, if not all, of our young pitchers as "bums" so why not bring in Pedro. No rental players except for guys you've deemed bums. Oh, and I'll go back and forth as long as you want....


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:27 am 
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[[/quote]
Yes, because other teams would pick him up as a fifth starter in a heartbeat.[/quote]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/s ... yerId=6219

I've seen enough.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:31 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:

Made it clear? You were one of the people who thought bringing in Pedro was a great idea because, and I'm paraphrasing, our young pitchers who he would block all suck.



Yes this is correct. Aside from Maholm, Snell and Gorzy, our rotation is junk.

The Bay trade brought us Bryan Morris and the Nady trade got us Tabata. Other than that, we got more even more junk.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:21 am 
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omgardd wrote:
Yes this is correct. Aside from Maholm, Snell and Gorzy, our rotation is junk.

The Bay trade brought us Bryan Morris and the Nady trade got us Tabata. Other than that, we got more even more junk.


Well, I didn't know that you and Kingston were scouts. I stand corrected. Someone put in a call to Huntington and have him cut Ohlendorf, McCutcheon, Duke, Karstens, et. al. They've all clearly had enough time to show they can't cut it.... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:19 am 
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Ryann wrote:
I am also sick of some of the "fans" on this site. They jump on anyone who gives any criticism to how to the bucs are being run. They just smile and shake their heads and agree with everthing pirates management does and they did the same with littlefield, and tracy. All fans have a right to call out their team after 16 straight losing seasons, and some of the dumbest moves in baseball history. Now im not saying the bay and nady trades were total garbage because it is to early to say that they were. Im just sick of the lack of criticsm on this team and im glad more fans are speaking out.


You and other posters get "jumped on" because your criticisms are practically baseless. Its all the same, this is what we get sick of;

Criticism: You pine about the past, the losing and the poorly run franchise
Answer: The past means literally nothing with Nutting assuming full control in 2007, firing Littlefield and hiring Coonelly and Huntington. Sounds to me like Nutting was sick of the losing too.

Criticism: You b**** when NH trades Bay and Nady about losing them and about the return.
Answer: First of all, our minor leagues were devoid of talent(thanks to Littlefield), the only way to infuse talent is to draft well and trade off players like Bay and Nady to stockpile more talent. Lets take Nady first, He was having a career year(at 30) and with 1 year left on his contract would have surely priced himself above what he is really worth(Boras is his agent). Bay on the other hand, is also on the down side of his prime years with 1 year left on the contract. Do you really think he would have stayed? The players we received in return, all have upside. And don't you think that at the end of last year the Yankees wished they wouldn't have made that trade?

Criticism: You complain about how Nutting is unwilling to spend money on the franchise.
Answer: HE(Nutting) SAID, when the Pirates have established themselves a core unit of players and are competitive, he will aquire whatever they need to get over the top. We aren't there yet so spending money on run-of-the-mill overpriced FA's is a waste of resources. But you guys are too short sighted to see the detriment that would incur with wasting this money. Refer to the Littlefied years for wastefull spending.

Criticism: The mindnumbing whines about how you don't think the Pirates are trying to win.
Answer: Thankfully, we have FC and NH who don't give a crap about how you think we should build a winner. They have established a sound plan and are following it to a T. Thats far more that can be said about past management. ADDITIONALLY, the sins of the past management are unfairly heaped upon the new management. That is a weak argument that should get no response from anyone.

Criticism: Who is going to want to watch the 2009 Pirates?
Answer: Me! Because I am a true fan, I watch them through thick and thin, I don't have a second team, or a team I like watching as much as the Pirates. Supporting the Pirates under this management is far easier than the previous, at least I can see light at the end of the tunnel.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:45 pm 
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The "thin" part has been much more prevalant than the "thick" part over the past sixteen years.

As far as the light at the end of the tunnel, show me, don't tell me.


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