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 Post subject: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Criticism...I will offer it and will take it, but calling people names...shame on some of you for your potty mouths. You swear like a drunken sailor...or Jimmy Leyland.

I've been a faithful follower of Brother John Birch...wait, that's a song. I have gone to games my entire life---many games a year, have and have had season tickets and have traveled to see my beloved Bucs, but that does not mean that I will drink the Kool Aid they are trying to feed us. I have been through more rebuilding processes than I can count, but it has been futile, if best.

The only thing I wish we could do was compete. I wish we could go out and get some more players to make the team team competitive. Hopefully, the team might get some players. Because we need them.

I took out the quotation marks, but that is not my feelings, its Jack Wilson's own words and feelings. This organization is lost and is going to remain lost until ownership ponies up to the bar and orders some top shelf product and pays for it. It is important to establish a strong farm system. I appreciate that the A's have established, but they have had large payrolls at times (much larger than the Pirates) and the Brewers have shelled out some funds to build a better team.

Coonely has acknowledged that the organization makes money. Sometimes you have to spend money. Sometimes an entity has to increase capital expenditures, which reduce profits, in order to have a better, more competitive product.

Maybe, if the Nutting boys don't want to spend more of their money so the people in Pittsburgh can avoid another losing season, they could send some of the coaching staff around the city, pick up the homeless folks and sell them off for food or medical testing purposes. Just a modest proposal on my part.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:37 pm 
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The Brewers were built through their minor league system and added players when they thought the team had a shot of winning like Mike Cameron and CC Sabathia and Gagne

I've said this before numerous times, who cares about losing 17 straight seasons...its just a number...going out and signing and trading for players for one season of above .500 baseball is a dumb move in longevity of the organization...

Would you be happy if the Pirates would go and sign a bunch of free agents and finish 82-80 this season only to lose 100 games in 2010 and not have the prospects to replace what they lost because you traded them away to bring in someone to help keep you 2 games over .500?

Does it hurt, being a Pirate fan, not having a playoff team to cheer about since 1992? Yes...Has previous management screwed the process up? Yes...

The new management has mad huge strides in the front office side finding scouts and people to fill positions to help find the best players in the world and getting them to come to play for Pittsburgh...Neal and Frank have been on the job since late 2007, they are not miracle workers and they cant walk on water...give them time...

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:50 pm 
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They may not be miracle workers, but they can add some support to the building they are constructing and keep some of the tools that they have. Last season they sold players, rather than traded players.

What this organization received, as value, for what was given does not suggest good moves. They traded value for hope and avoided payroll. They have, throughout the years, done this and it has not worked. They must keep some players, good players, in place to support the growth of the team and to allow talent to mature at the appropriate pace.

To suggest the amount of years with a losing team is just numbers, is not appropriate. Baseball is a game of numbers. If it were not a game of numbers we would still have Larry Doughty running the show.

This team will not succeed unless it has home grown talent, peppered with rented talent, which is topped off by bought talent. This will move this organization along. This organization needs to bring a winners mentality to the clubhouse and that is obtained by bringing in a proven winner.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:16 pm 
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jabram wrote:
They may not be miracle workers, but they can add some support to the building they are constructing and keep some of the tools that they have. Last season they sold players, rather than traded players.

What this organization received, as value, for what was given does not suggest good moves. They traded value for hope and avoided payroll. They have, throughout the years, done this and it has not worked. They must keep some players, good players, in place to support the growth of the team and to allow talent to mature at the appropriate pace.

To suggest the amount of years with a losing team is just numbers, is not appropriate. Baseball is a game of numbers. If it were not a game of numbers we would still have Larry Doughty running the show.

This team will not succeed unless it has home grown talent, peppered with rented talent, which is topped off by bought talent. This will move this organization along. This organization needs to bring a winners mentality to the clubhouse and that is obtained by bringing in a proven winner.


No, they traded players, of value, who had one year left on their contracts for players who have many years of control left on them...They acquired players who have numbers showing they are going to be good players in a few years...Salary dumping was just a secondary effect of the trades...If they were dumping salary they would have been dealt for anything they could have gotten, instead they landed some pitching prospects and 2 hitters who have a shot of being stars...

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:12 pm 
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I believe that the past 15 years have established that prospects are not, generally, what they receive from other teams when the big name player leaves the Burgh.

The players that they have received this year, last year and all of the other years seldom pay off as being valued members of the staff. Weigh Bay, Sanchez and Nady against Jose Hernandez, Matt Bruback, Bobby Hill Mark Redman, Arthur Rhodes, Brian Rogers Marino Salas, Kevin Roberts Armando Rios, Ryan Vogelsong, Tony McKnight, Paul Weichald and Jason Boyd.

The Pirates moves from last year, I would submit, may bring one fair pitcher and one utility player. They had birds in hand and now, I fear, they only have bird poo.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:56 pm 
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jabram wrote:
I believe that the past 15 years have established that prospects are not, generally, what they receive from other teams when the big name player leaves the Burgh.

The players that they have received this year, last year and all of the other years seldom pay off as being valued members of the staff. Weigh Bay, Sanchez and Nady against Jose Hernandez, Matt Bruback, Bobby Hill Mark Redman, Arthur Rhodes, Brian Rogers Marino Salas, Kevin Roberts Armando Rios, Ryan Vogelsong, Tony McKnight, Paul Weichald and Jason Boyd.

The Pirates moves from last year, I would submit, may bring one fair pitcher and one utility player. They had birds in hand and now, I fear, they only have bird poo.

The last 15 years were not run by Neal Huntington and Frank Coonelly. Further, the trades of Huntington and Coonelly have been starkly different compared to those of their predecessors with regard to what the Pirates received in return. Jose Tabata, Andy LaRoche and Brian Morris have much higher ceilings compared to players like Ty Wigginton, Ryan Vogelsong and Bobby Hill. It is not fair to impute the failures of McClatchy, Littlefield, and Bonifay upon Huntington and Coonelly.

Further, the "birds in hand" were going to become "bird poo" if we had held onto them much longer, both in performance (Nady) and trade value (Bay, Nady and Marte). When your team is a loser and is trying to rebuild, the value of having a good prospect for a long period of time outweighs the value of having a good player or even a star player for a short period of time. The A's, Twins and Braves have proven this time and time again.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:03 pm 
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I think I see where this is headed, so 1) Laroche's minor league numbers match up almost exactly to Bay's minor league numbers 2) You cant judge a prospect's (or any batter's) at bats when he is hitting with a bad thumb.

Thought Id save us all some time.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:26 pm 
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jabram wrote:
They may not be miracle workers, but they can add some support to the building they are constructing and keep some of the tools that they have. Last season they sold players, rather than traded players.

What this organization received, as value, for what was given does not suggest good moves. They traded value for hope and avoided payroll. They have, throughout the years, done this and it has not worked. They must keep some players, good players, in place to support the growth of the team and to allow talent to mature at the appropriate pace.

To suggest the amount of years with a losing team is just numbers, is not appropriate. Baseball is a game of numbers. If it were not a game of numbers we would still have Larry Doughty running the show.

This team will not succeed unless it has home grown talent, peppered with rented talent, which is topped off by bought talent. This will move this organization along. This organization needs to bring a winners mentality to the clubhouse and that is obtained by bringing in a proven winner.

The problem is that you suggest that they bring in the rented talent before they have any homegrown talent. This is a recipe for another 17 years of losing.

Mentality does not win games. Talen wins games.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Willton wrote:
jabram wrote:
I believe that the past 15 years have established that prospects are not, generally, what they receive from other teams when the big name player leaves the Burgh.

The players that they have received this year, last year and all of the other years seldom pay off as being valued members of the staff. Weigh Bay, Sanchez and Nady against Jose Hernandez, Matt Bruback, Bobby Hill Mark Redman, Arthur Rhodes, Brian Rogers Marino Salas, Kevin Roberts Armando Rios, Ryan Vogelsong, Tony McKnight, Paul Weichald and Jason Boyd.

The Pirates moves from last year, I would submit, may bring one fair pitcher and one utility player. They had birds in hand and now, I fear, they only have bird poo.

The last 15 years were not run by Neal Huntington and Frank Coonelly. Further, the trades of Huntington and Coonelly have been starkly different compared to those of their predecessors with regard to what the Pirates received in return. Jose Tabata, Andy LaRoche and Brian Morris have much higher ceilings compared to players like Ty Wigginton, Ryan Vogelsong and Bobby Hill. It is not fair to impute the failures of McClatchy, Littlefield, and Bonifay upon Huntington and Coonelly.

Further, the "birds in hand" were going to become "bird poo" if we had held onto them much longer, both in performance (Nady) and trade value (Bay, Nady and Marte). When your team is a loser and is trying to rebuild, the value of having a good prospect for a long period of time outweighs the value of having a good player or even a star player for a short period of time. The A's, Twins and Braves have proven this time and time again.



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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:34 pm 
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jabram wrote:
I believe that the past 15 years have established that prospects are not, generally, what they receive from other teams when the big name player leaves the Burgh.

I believe that if you look back at the past fifteen years you will also establish that Neil Huntingdon was not the man making the trades. Maybe he will be another Bonifay or Littlefield, I don't know. My point is, neither do you.

Quote:
The players that they have received this year, last year and all of the other years seldom pay off as being valued members of the staff. Weigh Bay, Sanchez and Nady against Jose Hernandez, Matt Bruback, Bobby Hill Mark Redman, Arthur Rhodes, Brian Rogers Marino Salas, Kevin Roberts Armando Rios, Ryan Vogelsong, Tony McKnight, Paul Weichald and Jason Boyd.

You seem to forget where they got Bay, Sanchez and Nady. They got them by trading established major leaguers for prospects.

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The Pirates moves from last year, I would submit, may bring one fair pitcher and one utility player. They had birds in hand and now, I fear, they only have bird poo.

Perhaps you're right, but I don't think so. The fact that they got Tabata for a journeyman outfielder like Nady seems like a positive to me, even if none of the three pitchers work out. Of course, they could have always stood pat and won 75 games. Whoopee.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:36 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
jabram wrote:
They may not be miracle workers, but they can add some support to the building they are constructing and keep some of the tools that they have. Last season they sold players, rather than traded players.

What this organization received, as value, for what was given does not suggest good moves. They traded value for hope and avoided payroll. They have, throughout the years, done this and it has not worked. They must keep some players, good players, in place to support the growth of the team and to allow talent to mature at the appropriate pace.

To suggest the amount of years with a losing team is just numbers, is not appropriate. Baseball is a game of numbers. If it were not a game of numbers we would still have Larry Doughty running the show.

This team will not succeed unless it has home grown talent, peppered with rented talent, which is topped off by bought talent. This will move this organization along. This organization needs to bring a winners mentality to the clubhouse and that is obtained by bringing in a proven winner.

The problem is that you suggest that they bring in the rented talent before they have any homegrown talent. This is a recipe for another 17 years of losing.



Correct. Look, say management really rolled up its sleeves and, just theoretically. went out and spent $$$ on a 30/100 guy and a 25/100 guy. That would cost quite a bit, raise the payroll substantially, the groaners would be happy... and all we'd be doing is returning Bay's/Nady's level of production to the lineup. And as I recall, we were never really giving the Cubs a run for their money at any time last yr.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 pm 
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I think maybe what he could be getting at is, really what does it hurt to go out and spend, maybe overspend to bring a guy like Adam Dunn or a Ben Sheets to give the "groaners" some reason to watch the team in 2009 while we wait for prospects to develop for 2010 or 2011? Nobody's saying a Dunn or a Sheets can't be around when a Tabata or a Alvarez are ready either. What does it hurt to raise the payroll? We can't keep our payroll in the bottom of the league forever. It's gonna have to be raised sometime, right?

Realistically guys, they've been getting hammered from what I understand at the pirateFest forums and rightfully so. When your only offseason moves are Ramon Vazquez and Craig Monroe, what is that telling your fanbase that you're asking to spend their money on your product? No trading away prospects trying to win 75 games isn't the answer, but standing pat sure as hell isn't either. There has to be a happy medium.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:46 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
I think maybe what he could be getting at is, really what does it hurt to go out and spend, maybe overspend to bring a guy like Adam Dunn or a Ben Sheets to give the "groaners" some reason to watch the team in 2009 while we wait for prospects to develop for 2010 or 2011. Nobody's saying a Dunn or a Sheets can't be around when a Tabata or a Alvarez are ready either. Realistically guys, they've been getting hammered from what I understand at the pirateFest forums and rightfully so. When your only offseason moves are Ramon Vazquez and Craig Monroe, what is that telling your fanbase that you're asking to spend their money on your product? No trading away prospects trying to win 75 games isn't the answer, but standing pat sure as hell isn't either. There has to be a happy medium.


Well, who around here has done the most bi#ching about Vazquez and Monroe. So okay; if its just to give the fans something more to be interested in, while understanding it really doesnt mean a lick, I concede the point.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:04 pm 
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And I'll concede that no it doesn't mean anything. I knew the pre-trade pirates had no chance to catch the cubs, but boy they were fun to watch.

Spend some money, not at the expense of the 2010/11 clubs, and go get us some players to at least capture some semblance of attention.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:08 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
And I'll concede that no it doesn't mean anything. I knew the pre-trade pirates had no chance to catch the cubs, but boy they were fun to watch.

Spend some money, not at the expense of the 2010/11 clubs, and go get us some players to at least capture some semblance of attention.


Try as we may, I dont think we can turn this into an argument, because I understand what youre saying.

For me, its not about $$$. Hey, its not my money. For me, its about playing time. I dont want a rental to take time away from a kid who may play a role in our future.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:06 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Jose Tabata, Andy LaRoche and Brian Morris have much higher ceilings compared to players like Ty Wigginton, Ryan Vogelsong and Bobby Hill.


I disagree. Bobby Hill was supposed to be the second coming of Ryne Sandberg in Chicago. As Hill was hopping back and forth from Iowa to Chicago his stock was really starting to slip. The writing was on the wall that Hill wasn't going to be a good MLB player. I get the same feeling with Andy LaRoche. He was supposed to be the next big thing in LA. When the trade went through Dodger fans were happy to see him go. I haven't completely given up on LaRoche but I'm certainly not punching his All-Star ticket any time soon.

Vogelsong was supposed to anchor the rotation with his rocket arm.

The only guy that really excites me is Tabata. Ok, I'm not that excited for him but at least the jury is still out on him.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Just because you absolutely know you're not going to win the division doesn't mean that you don't give the fans a watchable product....this team is going to be nearly unwatchable and nobody will be going to the games after June unless there's a big promotion or fans are coming out to see players on the opposing team. Rebuilding? Yes...by all means...but you have to give SOMETHING for the money they are paying. They could sign Dunn and Sheets and make the year interesting and sign them for long enough that when their supposed "core" of players is ready, that Dunn and Sheets are still with the team and in their primes. You can't say to the fans..."here's nothing...now pay me money to see the nothing". That won't last for long.


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:41 pm 
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Unless you are a fairly new poster, you know that this conversation has been going on since NH was hired. It will most probably go on all summer long.

Truth be told, it will take several years to see if it works or not. To just throw good money after marginal guys for a handful of wins is not my idea of smart ownership. Let's wait and bring this argument when we have a chance to really be competitive.

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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:44 pm 
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If you would please indulge me to rant a little, I would appreciate it. I have not added any comments for some time because the bantering about this team and organization by so many posters drains me (fun to read but draining). :) I guess getting up in years has a way of doing that. However after following the Pirates since the days of Clemente and Stargell, I have seen the good, the bad, and sometimes the ugly. And I can say without apology that this Pirates organization over the past 15 or so years has been absolutely the worse run franchise in all of baseball. There have been times over these last 15 years I have wanted to throw in the towel but I just couldn't. I predict that this year will be another tough year for Pirate Nation and maybe even next. But my heart tells me that better days are ahead. I really do believe that this new management finally gets it ... how to build a team we can once again be proud of. As someone who has at times made a living cleaning up the mess of incompetent leaders, I know it takes a razor sharp plan, guts to make hard and often times unpopular decision, and the wherewithal to stay the course. I believe Huntington and crew are those kinds of people. When you inherit a pile of garbage, it takes time to clean it up and restock the organization with quality. So I for one will stay the course, keep my complaints to a minimum, and wait for the day when the Burg is rocking with the sound of winning baseball. Until then I’ll enjoy the beautiful scenery called PNC...


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 Post subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Well said preach1. I've basically stopped posting here, but after reading your comments, I had to reply in agreement. 8-)

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