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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:49 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Argentum wrote:

I mean it's not like our starters are typically going 7+ innings anyways.


Excellent point. Id like to know what from their recent history would indicate to anyone that guys like Karstens or Ohlendorf would be innings eaters.


None of know that for sure as far as our younger guys go. Point is let's find out about some of them now instead of wasting an ounce of energy on a washed up pitcher like Pedro. Lord knows this year isn't going to be pretty so you might as well use it for some benefit to the future. This seems like a no brainer to me....


Youre not wrong, in theory. Certainly no one can predict the future, and the "lets see what the younger guys have" approach is perfectly reasonable. So this is a tough argument for me to make. But what the heck...

It would just be fun to have Pedro in a Bucco uniform. Just fun. To be able to root for him to have a last hurrah in a Pirate jersey? Just fun. Wont help our future. I dont buy the mentor nonsense. Just fun, the way it was fun a few years ago when we were getting clobbered and looking for SOMETHING to root for, and there was Freddy, each at bat a battle to see if one of our own could win a batting title. Didnt mean squat in the long run. Was just fun.

We're phoning in 2009, we all know it. I want to get excited about something. Anything. And to have this magnificent future HOF'er take the mound for us every 5th day in pursuit of of one last drop of glory on our behalf... Id get a kick out of that. And again, while theres no way to predict the future, my instinct tells me that whomever Pedro would be replacing in the rotation wont mean much to us down the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:48 pm 
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Aaaahhhhhh, the Bill Veeck approach, the Kiner arguement.

Can't argue too much with it. But hey, I tried with the DunnBlast and it flopped ya know...

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:16 am 
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Pedro would be one of the best pitchers on our team...He is not like other previous signings such as burnitz. He is a future hall of famer and he pitches with his brains more then just hit arm speed. He could teach the young players with potential how to pitch and could be a mentor. Now if you seriously think that the pirates pitchers we saw got shelled last year have a lot of potential your crazy. We saw what many of them had last year and that is nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:27 am 
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Ryann....you continue to contradict yourself. Why the hell should we bring Pedro in to mentor a bunch of pitchers who, according to you, have no potential? I could hire Pedro to "mentor" me, but if I can't pitch, my money might be better spent.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:28 am 
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Kingston wrote:
Youre not wrong, in theory. Certainly no one can predict the future, and the "lets see what the younger guys have" approach is perfectly reasonable. So this is a tough argument for me to make. But what the heck...

It would just be fun to have Pedro in a Bucco uniform. Just fun. To be able to root for him to have a last hurrah in a Pirate jersey? Just fun. Wont help our future. I dont buy the mentor nonsense. Just fun, the way it was fun a few years ago when we were getting clobbered and looking for SOMETHING to root for, and there was Freddy, each at bat a battle to see if one of our own could win a batting title. Didnt mean squat in the long run. Was just fun.

We're phoning in 2009, we all know it. I want to get excited about something. Anything. And to have this magnificent future HOF'er take the mound for us every 5th day in pursuit of of one last drop of glory on our behalf... Id get a kick out of that. And again, while theres no way to predict the future, my instinct tells me that whomever Pedro would be replacing in the rotation wont mean much to us down the road.


First it's a shame that this is the only kind of stuff that may get fans excited. Not sure I buy it but I get what you're saying. But you are assuming that Pedro would go back to his old self, which after watching him is highly unlikely. He's done. People stuck around to see Kiner because he was blasting mammoth home runs and people didn't want to miss the next one. In your Sanchez argument he was battling for a batting title. In other words he was having a great season. Also his personality was perfect to be a fan favorite. In Pedro's case his personality is in question and I'm not sure people would line up at the ticket window to see a future hall of famer stink up the joint with his 85 mph fastball.

After doing nothing to improve the major league roster for this season I think it would be a sham to sign this guy in the hopes of bringing in a few more fans. They just traded for those young pitchers and I surely hope aren't giving up on Gorzo. Take this lost year and find out about these guys, and yes, hope that one or more sticks.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:09 am 
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bradf wrote:
Ryann....you continue to contradict yourself. Why the hell should we bring Pedro in to mentor a bunch of pitchers who, according to you, have no potential? I could hire Pedro to "mentor" me, but if I can't pitch, my money might be better spent.


I didnt say none of them had potential I said the people he would be "blocking" from being in his spot have no true great potential. Snell, Gorzo, Maholm, and Duke seem to have potential and at least 3 of those 4 will get those top rotation spots and pedro wouldnt be stopping any of them. Mentoring and higher attendence are just bonuses with signing pedro. When it comes down to it he will win the team more games and this move will prove the pirates do care about winning, and make them a better baseball team.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:49 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Youre not wrong, in theory. Certainly no one can predict the future, and the "lets see what the younger guys have" approach is perfectly reasonable. So this is a tough argument for me to make. But what the heck...

It would just be fun to have Pedro in a Bucco uniform. Just fun. To be able to root for him to have a last hurrah in a Pirate jersey? Just fun. Wont help our future. I dont buy the mentor nonsense. Just fun, the way it was fun a few years ago when we were getting clobbered and looking for SOMETHING to root for, and there was Freddy, each at bat a battle to see if one of our own could win a batting title. Didnt mean squat in the long run. Was just fun.

We're phoning in 2009, we all know it. I want to get excited about something. Anything. And to have this magnificent future HOF'er take the mound for us every 5th day in pursuit of of one last drop of glory on our behalf... Id get a kick out of that. And again, while theres no way to predict the future, my instinct tells me that whomever Pedro would be replacing in the rotation wont mean much to us down the road.


First it's a shame that this is the only kind of stuff that may get fans excited. Not sure I buy it but I get what you're saying. But you are assuming that Pedro would go back to his old self, which after watching him is highly unlikely. He's done. People stuck around to see Kiner because he was blasting mammoth home runs and people didn't want to miss the next one. In your Sanchez argument he was battling for a batting title. In other words he was having a great season. Also his personality was perfect to be a fan favorite. In Pedro's case his personality is in question and I'm not sure people would line up at the ticket window to see a future hall of famer stink up the joint with his 85 mph fastball.

After doing nothing to improve the major league roster for this season I think it would be a sham to sign this guy in the hopes of bringing in a few more fans. They just traded for those young pitchers and I surely hope aren't giving up on Gorzo. Take this lost year and find out about these guys, and yes, hope that one or more sticks.


No, Im not predicting anything. Im saying that if he DOES have a comeback year it would generate fan excitement. If not, it obviously wouldnt. But dont let one delusional poster convince you that Pedro has personality issues. If he started to win for us, fans would fall in love.

By the way, no one could have predicted the Sanchez batting title either.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:29 am 
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At least there's someone else who sees through the mentor sham.


As far as the fans rooting for him, why would they? I think most fans would be smart enough to see him as the mercenary he would be. Pitching for Pittsburgh only because we were dumb enough to give him more money than everyone else.


If he had anything at all left, don't you think someone else would have taken a chance on him by now? The Braves are strapped for pitching. There are half a dozen AL teams who could use an arm on the back end of the rotation. Why Pittsburgh? Because Pedro has always followed the money.


Don't insult Pittsburgh fans by assuming most of them would root for a merc. We've been down that road before.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:31 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Aaaahhhhhh, the Bill Veeck approach, the Kiner arguement.

Can't argue too much with it. But hey, I tried with the DunnBlast and it flopped ya know...

ZM

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Quote:
Across baseball, Dunn's reported asking price [4/$56M] has left baseball executives ... with their eyebrows just about raised up to their hairlines. Certainly you cannot fault Dunn for trying to name his price, but for the time being, he seems nowhere close to getting it. One agent I spoke with today said that 'I think Dunn will get a max of $5 million per year. Anything more than that and I'd be surprised.'


I'm officially on-board with DunnBlast, ZM. $5M a year? Hell, throw 7 at him and count the balls that land in the Allegheny.

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Last edited by LtCol Kojak Slaphead on Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:12 am 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Aaaahhhhhh, the Bill Veeck approach, the Kiner arguement.

Can't argue too much with it. But hey, I tried with the DunnBlast and it flopped ya know...

ZM

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nation ... alsjournal

Quote:
Across baseball, Dunn's reported asking price [4/$56M] has left baseball executives ... with their eyebrows just about raised up to their hairlines. Certainly you cannot fault Dunn for trying to name his price, but for the time being, he seems nowhere close to getting it. One agent I spoke with today said that 'I think Dunn will get a max of $5 million per year. Anything more than that and I'd be surprised.'


I'm officially on-board with DunnBlast, ZM. $5 a year? Hell, throw 7 at him and count the balls that land in the Allegheny.


I don't think there is anychance of Dunn being a Pirate but i do believe whereever he goes he will get atleast 7 a year.but in no way shape or form should it be a 4 year deal.i would say 2 MAX.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:08 am 
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Kingston wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Youre not wrong, in theory. Certainly no one can predict the future, and the "lets see what the younger guys have" approach is perfectly reasonable. So this is a tough argument for me to make. But what the heck...

It would just be fun to have Pedro in a Bucco uniform. Just fun. To be able to root for him to have a last hurrah in a Pirate jersey? Just fun. Wont help our future. I dont buy the mentor nonsense. Just fun, the way it was fun a few years ago when we were getting clobbered and looking for SOMETHING to root for, and there was Freddy, each at bat a battle to see if one of our own could win a batting title. Didnt mean squat in the long run. Was just fun.

We're phoning in 2009, we all know it. I want to get excited about something. Anything. And to have this magnificent future HOF'er take the mound for us every 5th day in pursuit of of one last drop of glory on our behalf... Id get a kick out of that. And again, while theres no way to predict the future, my instinct tells me that whomever Pedro would be replacing in the rotation wont mean much to us down the road.


First it's a shame that this is the only kind of stuff that may get fans excited. Not sure I buy it but I get what you're saying. But you are assuming that Pedro would go back to his old self, which after watching him is highly unlikely. He's done. People stuck around to see Kiner because he was blasting mammoth home runs and people didn't want to miss the next one. In your Sanchez argument he was battling for a batting title. In other words he was having a great season. Also his personality was perfect to be a fan favorite. In Pedro's case his personality is in question and I'm not sure people would line up at the ticket window to see a future hall of famer stink up the joint with his 85 mph fastball.

After doing nothing to improve the major league roster for this season I think it would be a sham to sign this guy in the hopes of bringing in a few more fans. They just traded for those young pitchers and I surely hope aren't giving up on Gorzo. Take this lost year and find out about these guys, and yes, hope that one or more sticks.


No, Im not predicting anything. Im saying that if he DOES have a comeback year it would generate fan excitement. If not, it obviously wouldnt. But dont let one delusional poster convince you that Pedro has personality issues. If he started to win for us, fans would fall in love.

By the way, no one could have predicted the Sanchez batting title either.


First off I don't let any poster convince me of anything. I have no idea what kind of guy Pedro really is other than what gets reported. What I WAS trying to say is Freddy Sanchez quickly became a fan favorite because of his outwardly energetic, "fan friendly" personality. Not to mention he has a great background story with what he has overcome physically. And I didn't say that anyone thought he'd win the batting title. It wasn't until after he became an all star and then continued to hit at that pace after the AS break that everyone started jumping on him as a great story.

Your theory has too many "if's" anyway. Did you see Pedro pitch last year? If anyone thought he had any value at this point they would have jumped on him. He doesn't. He's a longshot at best to get back to resembling anything close to what he was. The ONLY value he has for the Pirates is if you sign him below market and he DOES return to form. Then you have a valuable trade chip in July. But let's face it that's a pipe dream. This whole scenario is a joke if you ask me.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:17 am 
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First of all, the only way a guy like Pedro can be detrimental to the development of a younger player is if he is taking starts away from said player even though his (Pedros) play is inferior. Otherwise the Pirates are simply playing the best people possible.

It's funny how the "play the young kids" banter disappears when we get two months worth of an over 6.00ERA and loads of walks (See Gorzy, Duke...et al.). I mean seriously, do you really think that there are five legitimate starters in this group: Maholm, Snell, Gorzy, Duke, Karstens, Dumatrait, and Ohlendorf? 4 of those 7 are lefties to boot. 1 of those 7 actually had a good year last year. 3 of those have never pitched more than 110 innings.

On and on and on.

This staff could be worse than last year's but somehow bringing in a guy like Martinez is a bad move. How?

I don't care about asses in the seats. I don't care about Hall of Famers, although I do admit that it would be cool under the right conditions. Those are just lame excuses coming from people who want to see the young guys get shelled and then complain that the Pirates should have had a plan B.

In my world a siging like Martinez has two possible outcomes:

1 - He actually has something left in the tank and can be flipped for prospects in July
2 - He sucks in which case he doesn't even make the team.

It would be different if our rotation was Shields, Kazmir, Garza, Sonnanstine, and Price. But it's not, instead we have Maholm, maybe Snell, and three guys named Moe.

Seriously, how does signing Martinez hurt our staff?


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
... I mean seriously, do you really think that there are five legitimate starters in this group: Maholm, Snell, Gorzy, Duke, Karstens, Dumatrait, and Ohlendorf? 4 of those 7 are lefties to boot. 1 of those 7 actually had a good year last year. 3 of those have never pitched more than 110 innings...


Depends what you mean by legit. If you mean any five better than current Pedro, then yes. Do you mean a legit winning rotation, probably not.

I wonder what your response to this type question would have been at this time last year with the year Snell and Gorzo had had, and that Maholm had?

I can certainly see Snell and Gorzo rebounding big time, and Maholm continuing to develop. I can see Olhendorf developing as well. I can also see, based on last year, and his career, Duke being a No. 5. Not to mention not knowing what McCutcheon brings.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:38 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Depends what you mean by legit. If you mean any five better than current Pedro, then yes. Do you mean a legit winning rotation, probably not.


The former. Pedro was as effective as Snell and Dumatrait and more effective than Gorzy and Ohlendorf.

ZelieMike wrote:
I wonder what your response to this type question would have been at this time last year with the year Snell and Gorzo had had, and that Maholm had?


It would have been he's infinitely more valuable than Matt Morris.

ZelieMike wrote:
I can certainly see Snell and Gorzo rebounding big time, and Maholm continuing to develop. I can see Olhendorf developing as well. I can also see, based on last year, and his career, Duke being a No. 5. Not to mention not knowing what McCutcheon brings.


Lots of "ifs" there. I'm getting shellacked for one "if", but 5 "ifs" are ok as long as they are currently on the roster. Doesn't make any sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:22 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Seriously, how does signing Martinez hurt our staff?


He takes a spot away from someone you want to find out about. Pedro Martinez will not help this team when it is ready to contend(whenever that might be). Ohlendorf, Gorzo, Snell, Maholm, Duke, McCutcheon, Karstens either will be or might be. In which case we need to find out more about them.

I for one never come on here and say don't play the young guys. If a team goes about things the way the Pirates do I think you have to play them. I can't believe that after doing absolutely nothing(which for the record I'm fine with if there was nothing that they could get done) this offseason to improve the major league club that people would endorse bringing in a has been pitcher. Yea he was great once, but wow...he looked awful last year. Had nothing on his fastball at all. A guy like that for a year? To hold up potential guys we have to find out about? In a year that will most likely be well...horrendous? Really? Makes no sense to me....


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:41 pm 
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How much more would you like to find out about Duke? I think I've learned enough that I don't want to know anymore.
Sign Pedro.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:32 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:


As far as the fans rooting for him, why would they? I think most fans would be smart enough to see him as the mercenary he would be. Pitching for Pittsburgh only because we were dumb enough to give him more money than everyone else.


If he had anything at all left, don't you think someone else would have taken a chance on him by now? The Braves are strapped for pitching. There are half a dozen AL teams who could use an arm on the back end of the rotation. Why Pittsburgh? Because Pedro has always followed the money.


Don't insult Pittsburgh fans by assuming most of them would root for a merc. We've been down that road before.


A very odd couple of comments here...

The very idea, that a major league baseball player will play for a team that gives him the most money. I never heard of that before. Pedro is setting a very dangerous precedent, going against his fellow ballplayers who decide where theyll play based on loyalty and fan appreciation.

You must have meant to say something else. I hope.

Also, the fact that hes not signed doesnt tell us squat about what hes got left or doesnt have left. Take a look at some remaining free agents. Plenty of guys with plenty of talent still unsigned. So thats just strawman stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:55 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:


As far as the fans rooting for him, why would they? I think most fans would be smart enough to see him as the mercenary he would be. Pitching for Pittsburgh only because we were dumb enough to give him more money than everyone else.


If he had anything at all left, don't you think someone else would have taken a chance on him by now? The Braves are strapped for pitching. There are half a dozen AL teams who could use an arm on the back end of the rotation. Why Pittsburgh? Because Pedro has always followed the money.


Don't insult Pittsburgh fans by assuming most of them would root for a merc. We've been down that road before.


A very odd couple of comments here...

The very idea, that a major league baseball player will play for a team that gives him the most money. I never heard of that before. Pedro is setting a very dangerous precedent, going against his fellow ballplayers who decide where theyll play based on loyalty and fan appreciation.

You must have meant to say something else. I hope.

Also, the fact that hes not signed doesnt tell us squat about what hes got left or doesnt have left. Take a look at some remaining free agents. Plenty of guys with plenty of talent still unsigned. So thats just strawman stuff.



Unless you're in a Tom Glavine type of situation, players at Pedro's age are usually looking for one last shot at a ring.

That's what I meant.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:03 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:


As far as the fans rooting for him, why would they? I think most fans would be smart enough to see him as the mercenary he would be. Pitching for Pittsburgh only because we were dumb enough to give him more money than everyone else.


If he had anything at all left, don't you think someone else would have taken a chance on him by now? The Braves are strapped for pitching. There are half a dozen AL teams who could use an arm on the back end of the rotation. Why Pittsburgh? Because Pedro has always followed the money.


Don't insult Pittsburgh fans by assuming most of them would root for a merc. We've been down that road before.


A very odd couple of comments here...

The very idea, that a major league baseball player will play for a team that gives him the most money. I never heard of that before. Pedro is setting a very dangerous precedent, going against his fellow ballplayers who decide where theyll play based on loyalty and fan appreciation.

You must have meant to say something else. I hope.

Also, the fact that hes not signed doesnt tell us squat about what hes got left or doesnt have left. Take a look at some remaining free agents. Plenty of guys with plenty of talent still unsigned. So thats just strawman stuff.



Unless you're in a Tom Glavine type of situation, players at Pedro's age are usually looking for one last shot at a ring.

That's what I meant.


Fair enough. But then why is it blasphemous to come to Pittsburgh in order to continue a baseball career when the contenders wont make you an offer? Im sure he, along with any competitive player, would prefer that. But given what we're gonna pay the guy, to say hes coming to Pittsburgh just for the money is sort of counterintuitive, isnt it? Being a mercenary and playing at PNC dont really go hand in hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Fair enough. But then why is it blasphemous to come to Pittsburgh in order to continue a baseball career when the contenders wont make you an offer? Im sure he, along with any competitive player, would prefer that. But given what we're gonna pay the guy, to say hes coming to Pittsburgh just for the money is sort of counterintuitive, isnt it? Being a mercenary and playing at PNC dont really go hand in hand.



But who's said the top teams won't make him an offer? Where has it been written that nobody wants to give Pedro a chance?

Look, throw away all my argument if you want. I don't care. At the end of Jump Street, I see this as a play by Pedro and his agent to try and drum up some interest in his client. The penny ante version of the high stakes poker played by Tex and his agent a month or so ago. Guys take some crazy deals to make one last play for the jewelry. I just don't see Pedro being content to play den mother to Pirates rug rat pitching staff.

There's something more to the story, I feel it in my bones.


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