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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:55 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
It' like Pinky's POV.

Martinez has a long history of putting Pedro first, Pedro second, and Pedro last. The idea that he's take a guy like Ian under his wing is so laughable I almost pissed myself when I read it.

Who gives a f***? If the guy can pitch, let him pitch. The whole "clubhouse cancer" thing is totally overblown, if not irrelevant.

Tell you what Wilton, go ask the Mets how "overblown" it is.

The Mets will tell you that the problem with Martinez was that his injuries kept him from pitching, not that his attitude was a problem. Believe me, I live in Mets country.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:07 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Willton wrote:
Who gives a f***? If the guy can pitch, let him pitch. The whole "clubhouse cancer" thing is totally overblown, if not irrelevant.


Couldn't agree more.
Sincerely,
Terrell Owens

Reggie Jackson concurs as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:24 pm 
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Pedro sure seemed like a pain in the clubhouse in New York

Quote:
Martinez, who is well-liked throughout the clubhouse for, among other things, his lighthearted joking, said yesterday he was aware of the problems.

"I spoke to everybody and I kept my ears open to everybody (while I was away)," Martinez said. "I also called a lot and kept in touch."


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... _07-2.html

The article was written May 31st, 2008

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:46 pm 
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Look....ignore everything else I said if you want. At the end of the day the guy is 37 and all but washed up.

He's not going to help the Pirates win more games. So why do some of you have a such a thing for signing him?


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:50 pm 
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My point was never being him in to just help snell. He will help the team. Pitchers still can be effective with a fastball 85-90 mph. He is an effective pitcher when healthy and as of now he is healthy. Many players can still be very good at 37, he is a not all washed up at just 37 he was a good pitcher last year without the injuries and one bad month, he showed flashes of great pitching. He is a good player in the clubhouse and could have a positive impact on the younger pitchers.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:54 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
My point was never being him in to just help snell. He will help the team. Pitchers still can be effective with a fastball 85-90 mph. He is an effective pitcher when healthy and as of now he is healthy. Many players can still be very good at 37, he is a not all washed up at just 37 he was a good pitcher last year without the injuries and one bad month, he showed flashes of great pitching. He is a good player in the clubhouse and could have a positive impact on the younger pitchers.



Yeah....taking away a spot from one of Pittsburgh's young pitchers is GREAT for the development of this team.


Martinez = old way of FO thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:57 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Look....ignore everything else I said if you want. At the end of the day the guy is 37 and all but washed up.

He's not going to help the Pirates win more games. So why do some of you have a such a thing for signing him?


Well, thats a different argument than the bogus clubhouse cancer thing.

And my response to it would be; no, I dont see him ever returning to anywhere near his old form. On the other hand, if healthy, will he be better than other guys fighting for a rotation slot? Could he be better than our #5, our #4, etc. My answer, clearly yes. So youre signing a guy who upgrades your rotation. Whats wrong with that?

The Bucs arent going to offer 5 mil, so thats another strawman argument. If he comes here itll be an incentive heavy deal. So here is finally a low risk, high reward argument I can embrace.

Also, itll just be fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Look....ignore everything else I said if you want. At the end of the day the guy is 37 and all but washed up.

He's not going to help the Pirates win more games. So why do some of you have a such a thing for signing him?


Well, thats a different argument than the bogus clubhouse cancer thing.

And my response to it would be; no, I dont see him ever returning to anywhere near his old form. On the other hand, if healthy, will he be better than other guys fighting for a rotation slot? Could he be better than our #5, our #4, etc. My answer, clearly yes. So youre signing a guy who upgrades your rotation. Whats wrong with that?

The Bucs arent going to offer 5 mil, so thats another strawman argument. If he comes here itll be an incentive heavy deal. So here is finally a low risk, high reward argument I can embrace.

Also, itll just be fun.



So one of our young pitchers can sit in Indianapolis for another year and we won't know if they can ever cut it in The Show because the FO wants to sign a 37 year old former "name" ballplayer.

This is signing a player for the sake of signing a player.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:02 pm 
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Young pitchers that still have a lot to learn. You see some people are not for having the worst pitching in the league this year. This team can still win im optimistic every year for us to have a chance to have a winning season, and with pedro it is more possible. Martinez is not like prior free agent signings, they were more washed up hitters that never really were great or hall of fame caliber. We never really got a true old pitcher except the matt morris trade.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:04 pm 
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Kingston,

If that is your reason for Pedro, then I say no, heartily no... I view the role of a No. 4 or 5 as one to get innings from. They can't be expected to be good innings all the time because 1) the guy can't pitch all that well, or 2) the guy is learning the ropes, and needs to pitch innings to learn.

In neither case do I want a guy who can't get past the 5th inning anymore on any kind of regular basis. And, no manager is going to leave soon-to-be-in-HOF-Pedro out on the mound doing a Maddux.

So, I don't find him a good fit in that slot. We have too many promising arms that could use that slot to gain experience, and to find out if they are going to be MLB pitchers.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Look....ignore everything else I said if you want. At the end of the day the guy is 37 and all but washed up.

He's not going to help the Pirates win more games. So why do some of you have a such a thing for signing him?


Well, thats a different argument than the bogus clubhouse cancer thing.

And my response to it would be; no, I dont see him ever returning to anywhere near his old form. On the other hand, if healthy, will he be better than other guys fighting for a rotation slot? Could he be better than our #5, our #4, etc. My answer, clearly yes. So youre signing a guy who upgrades your rotation. Whats wrong with that?

The Bucs arent going to offer 5 mil, so thats another strawman argument. If he comes here itll be an incentive heavy deal. So here is finally a low risk, high reward argument I can embrace.

Also, itll just be fun.



So one of our young pitchers can sit in Indianapolis for another year and we won't know if they can ever cut it in The Show because the FO wants to sign a 37 year old former "name" ballplayer.

This is signing a player for the sake of signing a player.


Yknow, if he was gonna be taking innings away from Morris, if he was ready, Id agree. But who's kidding who. There are no young arms currently in contention for a back of the rotation slot who are so compelling or special that I consider them a cornerstone of our team development. Avoiding watching them get bombed every 5th day will do nothing to screw up our teams future.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:10 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Kingston,

If that is your reason for Pedro, then I say no, heartily no... I view the role of a No. 4 or 5 as one to get innings from. They can't be expected to be good innings all the time because 1) the guy can't pitch all that well, or 2) the guy is learning the ropes, and needs to pitch innings to learn.

In neither case do I want a guy who can't get past the 5th inning anymore on any kind of regular basis. And, no manager is going to leave soon-to-be-in-HOF-Pedro out on the mound doing a Maddux.

So, I don't find him a good fit in that slot. We have too many promising arms that could use that slot to gain experience, and to find out if they are going to be MLB pitchers.

ZM


Well, thats a good point. But Id rather get 5 good innings out of Pedro, if possible, than watch younger arms get crushed. Again, no one of real long term value is being replaced here.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:21 pm 
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I always thought the old way of thinking was as stupid to everyone else as it was to me.


I can now see that some of you loved it. Pedro Martinez WILL NOT make Pittsburgh a winning baseball team next season. And signing these stop gap type of players does nothing but delay the development of younger players. One year of Martinez is one more year where we don't know what the younger guys have.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:25 pm 
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ZM, I'd argue that the Pirates have plenty of 4-5 starters available. Hell, with the exception of Maholm the whole freaking staff is nothing but 4 and 5 starters. You could argue a case for Snell I suppose but we should be looking to fill the middle of the rotation if we can. Pedro may be able to help in that regard. "May".

I mean it's not like our starters are typically going 7+ innings anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:28 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
I always thought the old way of thinking was as stupid to everyone else as it was to me.


I can now see that some of you loved it. Pedro Martinez WILL NOT make Pittsburgh a winning baseball team next season. And signing these stop gap type of players does nothing but delay the development of younger players. One year of Martinez is one more year where we don't know what the younger guys have.


No one said Pedro would turn the Bucs into winners. I sure didnt.

What I find stupid is going along with the charade that guys like Ohlendorf or Karstens or Barthmaier will play any significant role in 2011 or 2012. Theres no standout there. Theyre all being thrown against the wall in the hopes that one sticks, and by "sticks" i mean stinks less than the others.

Stopgaps are a mistake when they take playing time away from real prospects. Pedro would be taking PT away from the next coming of Ryan Vogelsong.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:30 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
I always thought the old way of thinking was as stupid to everyone else as it was to me.


I can now see that some of you loved it. Pedro Martinez WILL NOT make Pittsburgh a winning baseball team next season. And signing these stop gap type of players does nothing but delay the development of younger players. One year of Martinez is one more year where we don't know what the younger guys have.


No one said Pedro would turn the Bucs into winners. I sure didnt.

What I find stupid is going along with the charade that guys like Ohlendorf or Karstens or Barthmaier will play any significant role in 2011 or 2012. Theres no standout there. Theyre all being thrown against the wall in the hopes that one sticks, and by "sticks" i mean stinks less than the others.

Stopgaps are a mistake when they take playing time away from real prospects. Pedro would be taking PT away from the next coming of Ryan Vogelsong.



You're not suggesting it, but Ryann is.

Go back and read his posts in this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:31 pm 
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Argentum wrote:

I mean it's not like our starters are typically going 7+ innings anyways.


Excellent point. Id like to know what from their recent history would indicate to anyone that guys like Karstens or Ohlendorf would be innings eaters.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Yer miss'n the boat on Ohlendorf.

Guy has potential. Showed it at AAA last year. Think he will surprise.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:42 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Yer miss'n the boat on Ohlendorf.

Guy has potential. Showed it at AAA last year. Think he will surprise.

ZM


Perhaps. id be happy to be wrong, obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedro a Pirate?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Argentum wrote:

I mean it's not like our starters are typically going 7+ innings anyways.


Excellent point. Id like to know what from their recent history would indicate to anyone that guys like Karstens or Ohlendorf would be innings eaters.


None of know that for sure as far as our younger guys go. Point is let's find out about some of them now instead of wasting an ounce of energy on a washed up pitcher like Pedro. Lord knows this year isn't going to be pretty so you might as well use it for some benefit to the future. This seems like a no brainer to me....


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