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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:18 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Then if you dont think that this team will be good in six years, why not do something else then waste your time or energy as a Pirate fan?



1. I've already invested 24 years in this team. It doesn't seem worth it to start over with another team.

2. I think the posters here with the exception of BH and Bob in Boston are some of the smartest baseball fans around and I really enjoy talking to all of you.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:22 pm 
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I'm not talking the board, if I wasnt a Pirate fan I'd still hang around here for the baseball discussion too...

but starting over because you've already put in 24 years? That doesnt make sense to me, sometimes you got to know when to call it quits if you dont believe in something...

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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:24 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
I'm not talking the board, if I wasnt a Pirate fan I'd still hang around here for the baseball discussion too...

but starting over because you've already put in 24 years? That doesnt make sense to me, sometimes you got to know when to call it quits if you dont believe in something...



I don't know. Maybe part of me is still waiting for Sid Bream to be called out at home plate. Maybe part of me still thinks Doug Drabek had the best mullet in baseball. Maybe I still own an Angels in the Outfield t-shirt.

I mean don't get me wrong. I watched the Diamondbacks when I was stationed in Arizona and I'll probably watch the Braves now that I'm down here in Mississippi. But no matter how hard I try, I always look for the Pirates score every morning when I read The Sporting News. I just can't help myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:42 pm 
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Some posters have given Alvarez a hard time because he took Boras' advice to play hardball with the Bucs a few months ago. They questioned his character, his desire to play for the Pirates, etc...

Ive just been reading about Jason Varitek, and its a cautionary tale about the influence an agent has over a client. Heres a 36 yr old catcher who hit .220 last year. If he accepted arbitration, hedve ended up somewhere in the 10 million dollar range for 2009, according to various sources.

Instead, he allows Boras to convince him to walk away in the search for Posada money. Rotoworld mentioned 4 yrs at 40 mil. Seemed ludicrous at the time and now even moreso. Clearly, this was terrible advice... but the point here is that no one can look at Varitek and with a straight face accuse him of not be a fierce competitor or someone who doesnt want to be with the Sox. He simply made a business decision, like Alvarez.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
...that I'm down here in Mississippi.


You have my condolences.

Quote:
I read The Sporting News.


You REALLY have my condolences.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
If he accepted arbitration, hedve ended up somewhere in the 10 million dollar range for 2009, according to various sources.



Hedve? Love it.

Also know though that a contract reached that way is NON-GUARANTEED. He could have been cut and owed nothing, though it would have to be for clear baseball reasons (probably not hard to justify since he hit .220 last year though).


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:11 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Kingston wrote:
If he accepted arbitration, hedve ended up somewhere in the 10 million dollar range for 2009, according to various sources.



Also know though that a contract reached that way is NON-GUARANTEED.


Really? Arbitration contracts arent guaranteed? I honestly didnt know that. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:20 pm 
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Question...

I always thought teams declined to offer arbitration because they were afraid of being locked in to the result. But, if they can simply decide they dont like the ruling and can walk away, and since it brings them draft compensation, why would a team NOT offer arbitration?

Im missing something obvious here, Im sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Question...

I always thought teams declined to offer arbitration because they were afraid of being locked in to the result. But, if they can simply decide they dont like the ruling and can walk away, and since it brings them draft compensation, why would a team NOT offer arbitration?

Im missing something obvious here, Im sure.


I think the language is very tricky. The player can be released, but it has to be for baseball reasons. If, for example, the Red Sox would have taken Varitek to arbitration, he gets a $10 mil award as you suggested, and he hits .260 and is generally an asset to the team, they can't cut him just to save money or because they don't think he is worth $10 mil. They also can't cut him if he is injured. So, there is risk for the team in most cases.

However, if he is struggling to get to the Mendoza line, and the team is able to justify that they are cutting him for baseball reasons, they can do so. You better believe the players' union goes through those cases with a fine-toothed comb though. It sounds to me that the language of the labor agreement is very vague though as to what determines a legitimate baseball reason (ie there are no benchmarks such as bottom 5% of players at your position, etc). In Tek's case, after hitting .220 last year, there may be reason for him to fear that they would be able to cut him. In someone like Adam Dunn's case, had he been offered and accepted arbitration, he probably could have rested easy that he would not be able to be cut.

Some columnist had a primer on all of this, but I can't seem to find it.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:30 pm 
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The Varitek situation is a nice little object lesson in professional hubris, but let's not be naïve and minimize V-Tek's culpability in it. He's hardly a babe in the woods being led astray by the Big Bad Boras, and neither is Pedro. They've secured Boras's representation for very specific and very justified reasons, and if they were so outraged by or opposed to his strategy and tactics they could easily do what A-Rod, Kenny Rogers and Jeremy Guthrie have all done in the past 15 months and fired him.

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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:32 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Question...

I always thought teams declined to offer arbitration because they were afraid of being locked in to the result. But, if they can simply decide they dont like the ruling and can walk away, and since it brings them draft compensation, why would a team NOT offer arbitration?

Im missing something obvious here, Im sure.


I think the language is very tricky. The player can be released, but it has to be for baseball reasons. If, for example, the Red Sox would have taken Varitek to arbitration, he gets a $10 mil award as you suggested, and he hits .260 and is generally an asset to the team, they can't cut him just to save money or because they don't think he is worth $10 mil. They also can't cut him if he is injured. So, there is risk for the team in most cases.

However, if he is struggling to get to the Mendoza line, and the team is able to justify that they are cutting him for baseball reasons, they can do so. You better believe the players' union goes through those cases with a fine-toothed comb though. It sounds to me that the language of the labor agreement is very vague though as to what determines a legitimate baseball reason (ie there are no benchmarks such as bottom 5% of players at your position, etc). In Tek's case, after hitting .220 last year, there may be reason for him to fear that they would be able to cut him. In someone like Adam Dunn's case, had he been offered and accepted arbitration, he probably could have rested easy that he would not be able to be cut.

Some columnist had a primer on all of this, but I can't seem to find it.


Thanks for the explanation. Id still like to think Varitek got too cute and screwed himself, though. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:35 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
The Varitek situation is a nice little object lesson in professional hubris, but let's not be naïve and minimize V-Tek's culpability in it. He's hardly a babe in the woods being led astray by the Big Bad Boras, and neither is Pedro. They've secured Boras's representation for very specific and very justified reasons, and if they were so outraged by or opposed to his strategy and tactics they could easily do what A-Rod, Kenny Rogers and Jeremy Guthrie have all done in the past 15 months and fired him.


No, no. No minimizing going on here, and professional hubris is a good way of putting it. I just dont think it should be confused with a lack of commitment to the game or team, as some have suggested in Pedro's case.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
No, no. No minimizing going on here, and professional hubris is a good way of putting it. I just dont think it should be confused with a lack of commitment to the game or team, as some have suggested in Pedro's case.


Bingo.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
No, no. No minimizing going on here, and professional hubris is a good way of putting it. I just dont think it should be confused with a lack of commitment to the game or team, as some have suggested in Pedro's case.

By the grace of god I'm not a Sox fan, but if I was I'd most certainly be questioning Varitek's commitment to the organization, C-patch, WS rings or no.

And I'd also be looking at his declining stat line and thanking jeebus that Theo wasn't caving in for old time's sake.

But now, I think we're mining territory not really germane to Alvarez.

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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:41 pm 
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If you're looking for the best baseball coverage, The Sporting News is the best thing going.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:27 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
If you're looking for the best baseball coverage, The Sporting News is the best thing going.


Yeah...um...no. I subscribed for several years. Their "insider" Pirates news was written by one Ed Eagle. Yes, THAT Ed Eagle. The one who was writing the same exact news- er, fluff- for the Pirates website at no cost to the public.

Granted, none of the national media has great coverage of baseball outside of Boston and NY, but the Sporting News was pretty worthless as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:29 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
If you're looking for the best baseball coverage, The Sporting News is the best thing going.


Yeah...um...no. I subscribed for several years. Their "insider" Pirates news was written by one Ed Eagle. Yes, THAT Ed Eagle. The one who was writing the same exact news- er, fluff- for the Pirates website at no cost to the public.

Granted, none of the national media has great coverage of baseball outside of Boston and NY, but the Sporting News was pretty worthless as well.



I've bounced around to all the major outlets and I've found TSN pisses me off the least. SI is the worst with ESPN running a close second.


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:58 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
I've bounced around to all the major outlets and I've found TSN pisses me off the least. SI is the worst with ESPN running a close second.


Recent ESPN headlines about the Pirates:

"Enough About The Cubs -- What Do The Pirates Think About The Cubs?"

"Barry Bonds: He Used To Be A Pirate???"

"Pittsburgh Pirates Once Faced The Yankees In Series; Record Books For Series Laughably Erroneous And List Pirates As Winning Team."
"Pirates demolished 10-0, 12-1, 16-0 by Yankee Greatness"


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:02 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
I've bounced around to all the major outlets and I've found TSN pisses me off the least. SI is the worst with ESPN running a close second.


Recent ESPN headlines about the Pirates:

"Enough About The Cubs -- What Do The Pirates Think About The Cubs?"

"Barry Bonds: He Used To Be A Pirate???"

"Pittsburgh Pirates Once Faced The Yankees In Series; Record Books For Series Laughably Erroneous And List Pirates As Winning Team."
"Pirates demolished 10-0, 12-1, 16-0 by Yankee Greatness"


Don't forget:

Yankees Call Up Nady and Marte from their Pittsburgh Affiliate


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 Post subject: Re: Discouraging news about Alvarez
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:02 pm 
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My Yankee-fan buddy (yes, I have one of those) tells me that the Yankees have already informed the Pirates that they will be taking McCloth next year. I believe they are graciously offering something back.


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