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 Post subject: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:56 pm 
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0-3. Marte, McCutchen, Martin all denied. I disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:15 pm 
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Hopefully Marte and Martin have bigger years with the bat next year and get the nod.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:40 pm 
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I was surprised to see CarGo win.

I guess it's easy to have a good fielding percentage on the disabled list.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:53 am 
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BBF wrote:
I was surprised to see CarGo win.

I guess it's easy to have a good fielding percentage on the disabled list.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:34 am 
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I don't put much stock in gold gloves. Too subjective, offense weighs in too much. But Martin had a really good year defensively. Maybe Molina was better, I honestly don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:18 am 
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Statically it should've been Marte, Carlos Gomez, Russell Martin. So they got 1 out of 3, which is pretty solid for BBWAA.

Between that and the (relative) lack of forced "Boston Strong" and "Best Fans in Baseball" narratives, maybe there's hope for them yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:32 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Between that and the (relative) lack of forced "Boston Strong" and "Best Fans in Baseball" narratives, maybe there's hope for them yet.


Sadly, I think it is the "Best Fans In Baseball" (TM) and "The Cardinal Way" (TM) and "Molina is God Behind the Dish" baseball media meme robbed Martin. Don't get me wrong, Molina is an outstanding catcher but I really get tired of the walks on water routine with him. Martin had the better year.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:35 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Hopefully . . . . Martin have bigger years with the bat next year and get the nod.


We disagree. Molina is the best in the game.

Sincerely,
The Fielding Bible Voters

StarlingArcher wrote:
Hopefully Marte . . . have bigger years with the bat next year and get the nod.


I sincerely doubt that hitting played the determinative role in Marte not winning the gold glove. Inertia created by name recognition and CarGo's more "well-rounded" defensive game likely played more important roles. Looking at runs saved alone, the Fielding Bible folks point out that 19 of his 20 runs saved were due solely to his range.

I'm not saying that Marte and Martin didn't deserve to win. Not in the least. You can make compelling cases for both of them. However, the "didn't win because of hitting" claim has evolved into somewhat of a tired cliche. Especially when you can make strong arguments for those who won the awards. Arenado over Wright and the absence of big hitting Trout seems to be pretty strong evidence that hitting isn't carrying the day . . . .

You can look at Jones over Ellsbury and argue that hitting played a key role but, again, I'm betting that inertia/reputation and style points played a bigger role. Ellsbury is far from a all glove/no hit player. Hell . . . if you buy the notion that WAR is the "end all/be all," Jones and Ellsbury's WAR values are a wash given the potential for +/- 15% error rate inherent in the statistic (as admitted by the formulators).

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:48 am 
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Beat 'em Bucs wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Between that and the (relative) lack of forced "Boston Strong" and "Best Fans in Baseball" narratives, maybe there's hope for them yet.


Sadly, I think it is the "Best Fans In Baseball" (TM) and "The Cardinal Way" (TM) and "Molina is God Behind the Dish" baseball media meme robbed Martin. Don't get me wrong, Molina is an outstanding catcher but I really get tired of the walks on water routine with him. Martin had the better year.


Defensively? Maybe.
Offensively? Nope.
Overall? Nope.

I'd trade Martin for Molina every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Outside of the Pirates, I probably see the Cardinals more than any other team. If he's not the best catcher to ever play the game, he's in the team picture. Easily.

I love Cutch and am hoping that he wins the MVP but I can make a very strong argument that Molina is more deserving. He has a greater influence on the outcome of the game from a defensive standpoint than Cutch and his bat plays very well. Cutch is clearly the superior offensive player but has much less influence on W/L from a defensive standpoint.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:03 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Beat 'em Bucs wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Between that and the (relative) lack of forced "Boston Strong" and "Best Fans in Baseball" narratives, maybe there's hope for them yet.


Sadly, I think it is the "Best Fans In Baseball" (TM) and "The Cardinal Way" (TM) and "Molina is God Behind the Dish" baseball media meme robbed Martin. Don't get me wrong, Molina is an outstanding catcher but I really get tired of the walks on water routine with him. Martin had the better year.


Defensively? Maybe.
Offensively? Nope.
Overall? Nope.

I'd trade Martin for Molina every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Outside of the Pirates, I probably see the Cardinals more than any other team. If he's not the best catcher to ever play the game, he's in the team picture. Easily.


Respectfully disagree No. 9. The only metric that should THEORETICALLY be used for the GG is defense. In your post you used 3 criteria and (once again THEORETICALLY) the only one that should count is defense for the 2013 SEASON. So, in theory, offensive production, past history, reputation, should not come into play. I know that is fantasy as far as GG are concerned but that is the way it should be. By most defensive metrics Martin had a better defensive season but as long as Molina puts on shin guards, because of his (well earned, I admit) reputation and the overall halo and glow of all things Cardinal with the baseball media, it is his award to lose. That is what irks me. I know that my notion of awarding the best pure defender at the position will rarely occur (and for the record, I know that Cutch's offense swayed it last year), but the deification of Molina irks me.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:25 pm 
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Beat 'em Bucs wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Beat 'em Bucs wrote:
Sadly, I think it is the "Best Fans In Baseball" (TM) and "The Cardinal Way" (TM) and "Molina is God Behind the Dish" baseball media meme robbed Martin. Don't get me wrong, Molina is an outstanding catcher but I really get tired of the walks on water routine with him. Martin had the better year.


Defensively? Maybe.
Offensively? Nope.
Overall? Nope.

I'd trade Martin for Molina every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Outside of the Pirates, I probably see the Cardinals more than any other team. If he's not the best catcher to ever play the game, he's in the team picture. Easily.


Respectfully disagree No. 9. The only metric that should THEORETICALLY be used for the GG is defense. In your post you used 3 criteria and (once again THEORETICALLY) the only one that should count is defense for the 2013 SEASON. So, in theory, offensive production, past history, reputation, should not come into play. I know that is fantasy as far as GG are concerned but that is the way it should be. By most defensive metrics Martin had a better defensive season but as long as Molina puts on shin guards, because of his (well earned, I admit) reputation and the overall halo and glow of all things Cardinal with the baseball media, it is his award to lose. That is what irks me. I know that my notion of awarding the best pure defender at the position will rarely occur (and for the record, I know that Cutch's offense swayed it last year), but the deification of Molina irks me.


My post wasn't commenting on whether offensive or total game should be factored into the gold glove decision. Upon re-reading your post, I likely misinterpreted your "Martin had a better year" to be a comment on the overall package. I was simply commenting on which of the two was the superior player (hence the "I'd trade for Molina" comment).

As I posted earlier, you can make some great arguments that Martin deserved the gold glove award and, as he was my favorite Pirate this year, I was hoping that he'd win it. But . . . although they have come a ways . . . defensive metrics don't, IMO, tell the whole story. For example, Martin threw out more runners attempting to steal but there were far more runners attempting to steal on Martin than against Molina. How do you value base runners who would have attempted to steal but for Molina being behind the plate? As noted by the Fielding Bible folks, Molina did a better job of blocking pitches. Runners also know that Molina is not shy in throwing to a particular base if the runner wanders too far. He has a freaking cannon. What is the value of runners not being able to advance from 1st to 3rd on a single because of their limited secondary lead? The SABR folks have a tendency to eschew managers and players as not being as reliable as the numbers but I'd point out that the managers and the players have a pretty good grasp on how the game is influenced when Molina is behind the plate.

Offense trumping defense drove me crazy when Jose Lind lost year after year after year to Sandberg. However, I don't think that Molina won the award based upon legacy, reputation or due to his RBI and BA. His defensive prowess influences every single game he plays. You can't say that about many others.

If he were a Pirate, this Board would be fawning all over him similar to the way we currently fawn over McCutchen.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:42 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I love Cutch and am hoping that he wins the MVP but I can make a very strong argument that Molina is more deserving. He has a greater influence on the outcome of the game from a defensive standpoint than Cutch and his bat plays very well. Cutch is clearly the superior offensive player but has much less influence on W/L from a defensive standpoint.


Depends on your definition of MVP.

It can be be looked at two ways - best overall player statistically (as in, literally the most valuable player in the league as the acronym would imply), or as the most valuable player to one's actual team.

Either way I don't think Molina comes even close to beating McCutchen. By the best overall player criteria, Molina just doesn't come close due to his offensive contributions. Mind you, Molina is an excellent offensive catcher, but in the context of MVP voting, he's not a top ten player in the NL by any offensive category besides BA (in which he is only 2 points better than McCutchen) and overall WAR (in which he is 9th, while McCutchen is 2nd, and McCutchen is 1st in offensive WAR while Molina doesn't crack top 10). Obviously your argument is that his defense should be weighted very highly in the equation, but even in that context and the role of a "MVP", the Cardinals scored the 3rd most runs in the entire league last year. Compare the significance of catcher defense for an offense-first team such as St. Louis to that of the Pirates in which Russell Martin actually provided a 2.6 defensive WAR to Martin's 2.1 (yeah yeah, I know you hate WAR but the point is that Martin and Molina can be looked at almost interchangeable defensively, as you agreed in saying "maybe") and McCutchen's contributions to a low-scoring team and I don't think there's even an argument about the effect the lack of those two would have on the Pirates 94-win season.

I don't think Molina really has a shot no matter which of the two methodologies voters use. Doesn't change the fact that's a remarkable, rare breed of catcher with an elite combination of bat and defense though.


Last edited by TheShark on Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Runners tried to steal 89 times on Russell Martin this year. (60% success rate)
Runners tried to steal 46 times on Yadier Molina this year. (57% success rate)

Russell Martin had 4 PB this year.
Yadier Molina had 3 PB this year.

When Martin caught, Pirate pitchers had 51 wild pitches.
When Molina caught, Cardinal pitchers had 22 wild pitches.

Runners rarely attempt to steal on Molina (and when they did he threw them out at a 43% rate compared to Martin) and runners rarely advance a base on a wild pitch when Molina is behind the plate. While wild pitches are not - in theory - the catcher's fault, the numbers illustrate that Molina is amazing behind the plate.

If you asked me which one of these players I'd pick - at least based on these "hard" numbers - I'm picking Molina.

Palpable effect on the game. In large part, forces opponents to play station to station baseball.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:06 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
I love Cutch and am hoping that he wins the MVP but I can make a very strong argument that Molina is more deserving. He has a greater influence on the outcome of the game from a defensive standpoint than Cutch and his bat plays very well. Cutch is clearly the superior offensive player but has much less influence on W/L from a defensive standpoint.


Depends on your definition of MVP.

It can be be looked at two ways - best overall player statistically (as in, literally the most valuable player in the league as the acronym would imply), or as the most valuable player to one's actual team.

Either way I don't think Molina comes even close to beating McCutchen. By the best overall player criteria, Molina just doesn't come close due to his offensive contributions. Mind you, Molina is an excellent offensive catcher, but in the context of MVP voting, he's not a top ten player in the NL by any offensive category besides BA (in which he is only 2 points better than McCutchen) and overall WAR (in which he is 9th, while McCutchen is 2nd, and McCutchen is 1st in offensive WAR while Molina doesn't crack top 10). Obviously your argument is that his defense should be weighted very highly in the equation, but even in that context and the role of a "MVP", the Cardinals scored the 3rd most runs in the entire league last year. Compare the significance of catcher defense for an offense-first team such as St. Louis to that of the Pirates in which Russell Martin actually provided a 2.6 defensive WAR to Martin's 2.1 (yeah yeah, I know you hate WAR but the point is that Martin and Molina can be looked at almost interchangeable defensively, as you agreed in saying "maybe") and McCutchen's contributions to a low-scoring team and I don't think there's even an argument about the effect the lack of those two would have on the Pirates 94-win season.

I don't think Molina really has a shot no matter which of the two methodologies voters use. Doesn't change the fact that's a remarkable, rare breed of catcher with an elite combination of bat and defense though.


There are other factors that I would consider that some deem to be non-existent or inconsequential. I heard Keith Law in September advocate that Clayton Kershaw should win the NL MVP because, even though he only pitched every 5th day, he had a more dominant influence on the outcome of those games in which he pitched than any singular day-to-day player would have in a game. Namely, every defensive play starts with the pitcher. Using Keith Law's logic (did I really just write that? - uugh), Molina's contributions defensively outweigh any single pitcher and dwarf every single day to day player. Not only if Molina a solid offensively contributor, he is involved in every single play in which he is behind the plate.

Suffice it to say, there are factors that I would consider that don't necessarily appear in the numbers or are difficult (if not impossible) to quantify.

The Pirates making the playoffs and ending the "streak" likely vaulted McCutchen into the MVP leader and I expect him to win - even though WAR says vote for Carlos Gomez. I'll be surprised if Molina isn't number 2 or 3 on the list and floored if he falls below number 5. I'm thinking that the voting will be some combination of Cutch, Goldschmidt, Kershaw, Molina and Gomez.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:07 pm 
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I think Cutch won the gold glove primarily with his bat last year. I definitely think it happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Out on Gold Gloves
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:53 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I think Cutch won the gold glove primarily with his bat last year. I definitely think it happens.


If you thought that was an example of a Pirates CF winning a GG because of his offense, go back 5 years ago to McLouth's. His throw in the All-Star game might have got him some bonus points as well.


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