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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:54 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
IronKett25 wrote:
Willton wrote:
Pena was a considerably different case compared to Monroe. Pena was able to control the strike zone while hitting for power. There's little evidence that Monroe knows where the strike zone is. Monroe is filler, plain and simple.



Thank you for addressing that comment from the first page, comparing Carlos Pena to Craig Monroe is not really fair at all. .


You both miss the point, entirely.

ZM

Your point lacks merit because Monroe and Pena are not comparable.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:36 am 
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Argentum wrote:

Propping up Monroe using Michaels? That's damning with ultra faint praise. Two guys well under average replacement level players. I've been pushing for Minky, RH bat be damned! Give me someone capable of being at least average.


Not propping up Monroe at all. As I said, I think both players are worthless. I just find it amusing that some of the same people suggesting we re-sign Michaels are so pissed off about Monroe being signed to a minor league deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:54 am 
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BBF wrote:
Argentum wrote:

Propping up Monroe using Michaels? That's damning with ultra faint praise. Two guys well under average replacement level players. I've been pushing for Minky, RH bat be damned! Give me someone capable of being at least average.


Not propping up Monroe at all. As I said, I think both players are worthless. I just find it amusing that some of the same people suggesting we re-sign Michaels are so pissed off about Monroe being signed to a minor league deal.



Yeah, but the team got the same player for less money, meaning that Nutting just made himself a bigger profit this offseason not getting Sammy Sosa...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:24 am 
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BBF wrote:
Argentum wrote:

Propping up Monroe using Michaels? That's damning with ultra faint praise. Two guys well under average replacement level players. I've been pushing for Minky, RH bat be damned! Give me someone capable of being at least average.


Not propping up Monroe at all. As I said, I think both players are worthless. I just find it amusing that some of the same people suggesting we re-sign Michaels are so pissed off about Monroe being signed to a minor league deal.


"Propping up" was a poor choice of words. It insinuates deliberateness which I didn't intend as I've been around long enough to know you're a whole lot smarter than that. Perhaps I shoulda went with something like, "Comparing Monroe to Michaels, how apropos......."?


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:27 am 
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nad69dan wrote:
Yeah, but the team got the same player for less money, meaning that Nutting just made himself a bigger profit this offseason not getting Sammy Sosa...


Oh no!! Just the mere mention of this and he will come!!


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:29 am 
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Argentum wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Yeah, but the team got the same player for less money, meaning that Nutting just made himself a bigger profit this offseason not getting Sammy Sosa...


Oh no!! Just the mere mention of this and he will come!!

Does it have the same effect as saying "Beetlejuice" three times?

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:40 am 
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Willton wrote:
Argentum wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Yeah, but the team got the same player for less money, meaning that Nutting just made himself a bigger profit this offseason not getting Sammy Sosa...


Oh no!! Just the mere mention of this and he will come!!

Does it have the same effect as saying "Beetlejuice" three times?


Yep, and also saying "Candyman" 5x while looking into a mirror. Or frolicking with friends at an old, boarded up summer camp. Or.........


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:46 am 
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Argentum wrote:
Willton wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Oh no!! Just the mere mention of this and he will come!!

Does it have the same effect as saying "Beetlejuice" three times?


Yep, and also saying "Candyman" 5x while looking into a mirror. Or frolicking with friends at an old, boarded up summer camp. Or.........


Great I'm going to have to get out my necklace made of cloves of garlic and a $50 bill that says 'ban him' to feel safe walking the streets today...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:41 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Your point lacks merit because Monroe and Pena are not comparable.


No, your inability to remove the focus from degree to response is the issue. I don't give a flying frip that Pena's OPS, or OBP was greater than Monroe's. I merely point out that they both had a relative level of success at some point (DEGREE of success being arbitrary), and that Monroe, like Pena, could return to HIS previous levels, aka "bounce back like Pena". And, obviously, the sabremetric staff of the NH office feels he has a chance to do so, and that if so, it would help.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:40 pm 
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Screw it! Let's just contact Al Martin and see if he's ready for a comeback.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:47 pm 
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I prefer getting Buffy on the case, but that's just me.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:03 pm 
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VanSlick wrote:
Screw it! Let's just contact Al Martin and see if he's ready for a comeback.


He'd probably need permission from his wives!!!

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:18 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
that Monroe, like Pena, could return to HIS previous levels, aka "bounce back like Pena".

ZM


Here is the problem with that statement...Pena did not return to his previous levels. Pena had a career year, with an OPS nearly 200 points HIGHER than he had EVER put up. In fact, in Pena's two "down years", his OPS was very comparable to what he had done earlier in his career (around .800- though it was in limited playing time in 05 and 06), and he had a reasonable OBP during those years. So it wasn't so much a bounce-back as it was a breakout.

So unless you are proposing Monroe is poised for a breakout year (which you would have a lot of convincing to do if that were the case), it is erroneous to say that Monroe will "bounce back like Pena". The two are really not analagous.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:29 pm 
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Monroe will be 32. Over the last 2 years his OBP has been under .275. A high K rate. Couldnt find the strike zone if he had Lewis and Clark showing him the way. And amazingly, since he would be here to face lefties, seems to have forgotten how to hit lefties last year (.138). These are some of the reasons why I dont see any breakout or bounceback in this guys future.

When making this decision, I think NH consulted less with his sabremetrics staff than with his accounting office.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:48 pm 
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Does it really matter? Need we dedicate 6 pages to a Minor league signing? Its a good move by the Bucs because if he plays well, than we have a nice value at a minimum price, otherwise, he is just AAA fill-in.

Case closed.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Does it really matter? Need we dedicate 6 pages to a Minor league signing?


My personal preference would have been 5 pages, tho 4 pages would have been ideal. My biggest concern right now is that we go to 7 pages, because that would be embarrassing, especially with all the other good Pirate happenings we could be talking about. On the other hand, while 6 pages seem long on the surface, if you look into the metrics you can see that thread length can be deceiving unless you compare the lengths of the posts to the length of posts on other threads. For instance, 20 one line posts might only take up one page, where just 6 lengthy posts could take up two pages. I believe this was covered in the book, Moneyposts.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Did someone........


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:08 pm 
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....say.....


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:09 pm 
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...they were hoping......


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates Sign Craig Monroe and Miguel Perez
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:09 pm 
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.....a total......


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