Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:10 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5000
Location: Washington, DC
For a team that struggles to get on base, that .370 OBP is quite helpful. I'd love to see him hit for more power, but he hasn't been a drag on the offense.

If he goes 1-3 with a single and a walk on Tuesday, I'll be thrilled.

That said, with Pedro heating up, I'd consider swapping him and Morneau in the lineup.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5702
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
StarlingArcher wrote:
Also worth noting he has poor defensive numbers here.


Further evidence that defensive metrics fail to tell anything close to the whole story.

I didn't expect the Brooks Robinson of first baseman but (1) he's a bigger target than either Jones or Sanchez; (2) his footwork around first base put both Jones and Sanchez to shame; (3) his footwork, length and glove work have saved more than a few throwing errors in games that I've watched. His glove plays well at first base - very well. Does he have above average range? Nope . . . but neither does Jones.

However, when you build your team on defense first and you want opponent's hitting a ton of ground balls, I want a first baseman with good footwork at first base, who presents a big target, who has good length and who is spectacular at the ordinary. Morneau is all of that. Jones presents a big target and has good length but he lacks good footwork, he lacks good instincts and does not, IMO, meet the "spectacular at the ordinary" characteristic.

I've written it before and I'll write it again . . . if dWAR has Morneau as worse than a defensive replacement to be sound somewhere buried on a bench or in the minors, dWAR needs a complete makeover.

As for whether I'd be melting down if Jones was putting up Morneau's September numbers from the four slot . . . not seeing that. If Garrett Jones were getting on base at a .370 clip ahead of Byrd and Alvarez, putting the ball in play more frequently, hitting the ball to all parts of the park, I wouldn't be melting down. Would I like to see more doubles? Absolutely. More home runs? Who wouldn't? But, as has been demonstrated over the many years that I've posted here, I'm not much of the "swing for the fences no matter the count" baseball fan. I'd rather watch good offensive approaches, swinging at hittable pitches, getting on base consistently, etc. So . . . for me . . . if Jones was doing what Morneau has done, I wouldn't be doing back flips but . . . melting down? . . . not even close.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:37 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1406
Location: Eastern Shore
TheShark wrote:
Simple.

Morneau OPS vs. RHP: .819
Jones OPS vs. RHP: .730

+ Morneau with better defense.

I'm no Morneau fan. It's a marginal upgrade. But marginal upgrades are still upgrades.

A 3-0 sweep of the Reds notwithstanding, we are a team very much on the margin. And marginal teams need marginal upgrades. And it seems we've made progress with all our roster moves. Mercer proved better than Barmes, Martin saved us from the free reign we gave opposing base runners last year, Byrd is an upgrade over Snider/Jones, I'd rate Liriano an upgrade over Wandy, and Tabata kept us from missing Marte too much.

Such upgrades get you into the playoffs.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:00 am
Posts: 3138
val wrote:
A 3-0 sweep of the Reds notwithstanding, we are a team very much on the margin. And marginal teams need marginal upgrades.


I don't disagree at all with what you're saying re: improvements that have helped the team over the season, but I do disagree with your label of the Pirates as a "very marginal" team. They finished with the 3rd best record in the NL and 5th best in the league, and were a fluke loss or two (Marte's dropped fly ball, Mercer's throw into the stands) from challenging for being the number 1 team. They are one of the better teams in the league. Yes, they are constructed to win via pitching and defense and so it's easy to always call for offensive improvements. 96-win Oakland is very much in the same boat, and it's also how last year's Giants team won the WS.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:23 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:01 pm
Posts: 5832
Location: Slickville, PA
My point IS, HAS BEEN, and will ALWAYS be that we will never know what Jones could have done.

Here is what I DO know..

In less than half as many at bats, despite his low BA, Jones was MORE PRODUCTIVE.

He drove in more runs and had more RBI despite less than half of Morneau's at bats. His rate of runs, doubles, and total bases per at bat was better. So, explain to me again how Morneau was ANY offensive upgrade?? Despite the much better BA and On-base, he did not do much at all to help the team. I think I would rather have Jones and his more likely chance at power in the cleanup spot than Morneau's ability to draw walks.

_________________
"Live proud! Laugh Loud! Standout in a Crowd!"


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5702
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
val wrote:
A 3-0 sweep of the Reds notwithstanding, we are a team very much on the margin.


Couldn't agree more. If you look at the run differential of all the other playoff teams, you'll see that the Pirates and Rays have the smallest differential. You'll also see that the Pirates are the only playoff team which averages less than 4 runs per game. Consequently, if the defense makes a mistake that leads to the other team scoring a run or if the Pirates miss a scoring opportunity, the "cost" to the Pirates is higher.

Their margin for error is thinner than it is for other playoff teams. I've felt that way all year.

They played 16 games above .500 against the NL. They were 10 games above .500 against the Cubs and Brewers. They were 16 games above .500 against the Reds, Cubs, Brewers and Mets. They were .500 - in whole - against the other 10 teams in the NL.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4171
Location: Zelienople, PA
Animal wrote:
My point IS, HAS BEEN, and will ALWAYS be that we will never know what Jones could have done.

Here is what I DO know..

In less than half as many at bats, despite his low BA, Jones was MORE PRODUCTIVE.

He drove in more runs and had more RBI despite less than half of Morneau's at bats. His rate of runs, doubles, and total bases per at bat was better. So, explain to me again how Morneau was ANY offensive upgrade?? Despite the much better BA and On-base, he did not do much at all to help the team. I think I would rather have Jones and his more likely chance at power in the cleanup spot than Morneau's ability to draw walks.


Simple. He DID get on base and he DOES make contact with the ball, thereby extending innings. Something, factually, Jones did not do all year except for April, and something he was given every chance TO do.

No to mention that when Morneau starts a DP with a throw to 2nd, I don't worry about it going into LF.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 pm
Posts: 10641
No. 9 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. If you look at the run differential of all the other playoff teams, you'll see that the Pirates and Rays have the smallest differential.

I knew the Pirates were low in terms of playoff team and run differential, but did not know the Rays also fit that description.

This tells me that the Pirates' and Rays' emphasis on defense and shifts is a very intelligent use of a market inefficiency to help them win on a limited budget.

I also suspect that in fairly short order, other teams will try to capitalize on the same inefficiency, and remove the Pirates' advantage.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4171
Location: Zelienople, PA
True enough. Winning begets imitation.

However, with defensive shifts come holes in the defense. Inefficiencies created. Response?

How about some good old-school bat control? I'm talking about the spread the hands, Honus Wagner, shots to "were they ain't".

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2207
Location: Naples, FL
ZelieMike wrote:
True enough. Winning begets imitation.

However, with defensive shifts come holes in the defense. Inefficiencies created. Response?

How about some good old-school bat control? I'm talking about the spread the hands, Honus Wagner, shots to "were they ain't".

ZM



Honus Wagner is considered one of the best players ever. Maybe guys like Jay Bruce can't hit them where they ain't as effectively.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4171
Location: Zelienople, PA
Not with the way he swings now, he won't. That's my point, I guess.

Would Jack Wilson be a better hitter against a shift? Quite possibly because of his unusually good bat control (if not ability to take a walk).

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5251
Location: Pittsburgh
If the Pirates had failed to make the Morneau deal and Jones was performing exactly at the level that Morneau has, I'd be reading posts about how horrible Jones is. How do I know this? Because Morneau is hitting worse for the Pirates than Jones did for the year, and I remember all of the bitching and moaning I heard about Jones.

Here's hoping that we see a lot of lefties in the playoffs, just so we get to have a first baseman who can actually hit in the lineup.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:32 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 5580
bucco boy wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
I do agree that he is not a cleanup hitter.

Pedro has been hot of late. Move him up to four, Morneau down to five or six.

Morneau knows how to get OB, Pedro knows how to clear em.

(Arguably Pedro has seen more pitches since guys are on base in front of him, but still.)


I agree with everything you said except for one thing. The mental aspect. I think Pedro feels pressure and Hurdle knows it. I think that's why he has not stuck with him in the clean up spot.


Hmm. Touche.

Can't underestimate the mental aspect.

You'd like for Pedro to be over that by now, but... such is life.

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5000
Location: Washington, DC
sisyphus wrote:
If the Pirates had failed to make the Morneau deal and Jones was performing exactly at the level that Morneau has, I'd be reading posts about how horrible Jones is. How do I know this? Because Morneau is hitting worse for the Pirates than Jones did for the year, and I remember all of the bitching and moaning I heard about Jones.

Here's hoping that we see a lot of lefties in the playoffs, just so we get to have a first baseman who can actually hit in the lineup.


If Jones posted a .370 OBP in any month, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. I like it when our hitters don't make outs.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:32 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6238
JMHO, but from watching Morneau since he has been here, his at bats successful or not are much better at bats than anything Garrett Jones was giving us. He puts the ball in play, granted the power hasn't shown up but I can't watch GI swing at anymore breaking balls in the dirt.... 8-) 8-) 8-)


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:11 am
Posts: 221
Pitching and defense wins baseball games. If Barmes doesn't make the play he made in the first inning Saturday night we would likely be talking about a whole different scenario for Tuesday. The game Tuesday will not be played on your game systems.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 pm
Posts: 10641
Az Bucco fan wrote:
... but I can't watch GI swing at anymore breaking balls in the dirt.... 8-) 8-) 8-)

Here's big Garrett working on his swing (mirror image, of course):

Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5251
Location: Pittsburgh
J_C_Steel wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
If the Pirates had failed to make the Morneau deal and Jones was performing exactly at the level that Morneau has, I'd be reading posts about how horrible Jones is. How do I know this? Because Morneau is hitting worse for the Pirates than Jones did for the year, and I remember all of the bitching and moaning I heard about Jones.

Here's hoping that we see a lot of lefties in the playoffs, just so we get to have a first baseman who can actually hit in the lineup.


If Jones posted a .370 OBP in any month, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. I like it when our hitters don't make outs.

I like it when my first baseman puts up an OPS somewhere above the shortstop level.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:40 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5000
Location: Washington, DC
sisyphus wrote:
I like it when my first baseman puts up an OPS somewhere above the shortstop level.


Well, you can't have everything. "Not making outs" is a solid consolation prize.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits