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 Post subject: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:42 pm 
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...is not a clean up hitter. I know he'll bat there but if you forget his name for a second and look at his Pirate numbers, it's just hard to justify him batting fourth. He has no homers and 3-- that's RIGHT 3 RBIs. He does walk a lot so his OBP is pretty high. Doesn't that make him a guy to set the table. How about the 2 slot?

I know everyone disagrees here but my limited abilities in baseball management leaves me confused again. So, someone take the time to straighten me out yet again.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
...is not a clean up hitter. I know he'll bat there but if you forget his name for a second and look at his Pirate numbers, it's just hard to justify him batting fourth. He has no homers and 3-- that's RIGHT 3 RBIs. He does walk a lot so his OBP is pretty high. Doesn't that make him a guy to set the table. How about the 2 slot?

I know everyone disagrees here but my limited abilities in baseball management leaves me confused again. So, someone take the time to straighten me out yet again.


I don't disagree. I don't even think he is a legitimate every day player any more. He has done NOTHING offensively with the Bucs this month. I still say playing every day that Jones would have had better numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:58 pm 
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Honestly, I would toy with the idea of starting Jones on Tuesday. His numbers against Cueto aren't bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:01 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Honestly, I would toy with the idea of starting Jones on Tuesday. His numbers against Cueto aren't bad.


I know I have sounded like a broken record here bitching about Morneau, but I think it was a disservice to Jones and all he has done for this team. As I said before, I think a hot Jones streak would have been just as likely as Morneau continuing his hot August. We'll never know. I hope he gets hot for the playoffs. I supposed Jones would be our DH in the series WHEN we get there!

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Animal wrote:
I don't disagree. I don't even think he is a legitimate every day player any more. He has done NOTHING offensively with the Bucs this month. I still say playing every day that Jones would have had better numbers.


Would have never guessed you felt this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:34 pm 
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I don't think he belongs in the 4 hole either but who else can you insert there? Alvarez? We've seen how he slumps batting cleanup. Coincidence? Byrd? I like the shakeup with right and lefty down through the lineup. Makes it hell on the opposing manager when he calls on the bullpen. Jones? I love Morneau's defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Animal wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
...is not a clean up hitter. I know he'll bat there but if you forget his name for a second and look at his Pirate numbers, it's just hard to justify him batting fourth. He has no homers and 3-- that's RIGHT 3 RBIs. He does walk a lot so his OBP is pretty high. Doesn't that make him a guy to set the table. How about the 2 slot?

I know everyone disagrees here but my limited abilities in baseball management leaves me confused again. So, someone take the time to straighten me out yet again.


I don't disagree. I don't even think he is a legitimate every day player any more. He has done NOTHING offensively with the Bucs this month. I still say playing every day that Jones would have had better numbers.


Nothing is an overstatement to say the least. His OBP is .370. Now his SLG percentage has not been good especially for a first baseman. But between his defense and his OBP, he is a no-brainer to start on Tuesday.

Jones had a good April and his SLG percentage was good in July. Everything else has been atrocious this year including the eye test. If he was allowed to use a seven iron instead of a bat, then I would consider playing him

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:38 pm 
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I do agree that he is not a cleanup hitter.

Pedro has been hot of late. Move him up to four, Morneau down to five or six.

Morneau knows how to get OB, Pedro knows how to clear em.

(Arguably Pedro has seen more pitches since guys are on base in front of him, but still.)

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:41 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
I do agree that he is not a cleanup hitter.

Pedro has been hot of late. Move him up to four, Morneau down to five or six.

Morneau knows how to get OB, Pedro knows how to clear em.

(Arguably Pedro has seen more pitches since guys are on base in front of him, but still.)


I agree with everything you said except for one thing. The mental aspect. I think Pedro feels pressure and Hurdle knows it. I think that's why he has not stuck with him in the clean up spot.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:49 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Animal wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
...is not a clean up hitter. I know he'll bat there but if you forget his name for a second and look at his Pirate numbers, it's just hard to justify him batting fourth. He has no homers and 3-- that's RIGHT 3 RBIs. He does walk a lot so his OBP is pretty high. Doesn't that make him a guy to set the table. How about the 2 slot?

I know everyone disagrees here but my limited abilities in baseball management leaves me confused again. So, someone take the time to straighten me out yet again.


I don't disagree. I don't even think he is a legitimate every day player any more. He has done NOTHING offensively with the Bucs this month. I still say playing every day that Jones would have had better numbers.


Nothing is an overstatement to say the least. His OBP is .370. Now his SLG percentage has not been good especially for a first baseman. But between his defense and his OBP, he is a no-brainer to start on Tuesday.

Jones had a good April and his SLG percentage was good in July. Everything else has been atrocious this year including the eye test. If he was allowed to use a seven iron instead of a bat, then I would consider playing him

His OPS is .681. You can crow all you like about his OBP and defense at first base, but the fact is that he hasn't hit, and if first base defense brought a ton of value to a team, then Mike Squires would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. The only thing that Morneau has going for him is that Garrett Jones sucked even more in his limited opportunities in September.

Don't get me wrong, I think the trade was just fine. It was worth a shot. But he's been a big disappointment.

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Last edited by sisyphus on Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:58 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
I do agree that he is not a cleanup hitter.

Pedro has been hot of late. Move him up to four, Morneau down to five or six.

Morneau knows how to get OB, Pedro knows how to clear em.

(Arguably Pedro has seen more pitches since guys are on base in front of him, but still.)


I agree with everything you said except for one thing. The mental aspect. I think Pedro feels pressure and Hurdle knows it. I think that's why he has not stuck with him in the clean up spot.

Here's the answer to the Pedro at cleanup enigma.

He's very streaky. He'll hit for a number of weeks, then he won't hit at all for a number of weeks. He starts out the season down in the lineup, and eventually he goes on one of his tears. Eventually, after watching him kill the ball for weeks, Hurdle is basically forced to move him up in the lineup. So he goes to the cleanup spot and, in due time, ends up in one of his horrible funks. But he stays at cleanup for a while, in the hopes that he'll bust out of it. Sooner or later Hurdle is pretty much forced to get him out of there. Then the same thing repeats in reverse. It has nothing to do with clutchiness or the mental aspect. Pedro hits better down in the lineup because he spends most of his hot streaks down in the lineup, and he stinks at cleanup because he spends most of his slumps in the cleanup spot. I wish there was a way to predict his hot/cold streaks, but there isn't

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:40 am 
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Pedro's best spot in the lineup statistically has been the 5 spot. He was marginally worse at 6 than 4 this season.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:02 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
His OPS is .681. You can crow all you like about his OBP and defense at first base, but the fact is that he hasn't hit, and if first base defense brought a ton of value to a team, then Mike Squires would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. The only thing that Morneau has going for him is that Garrett Jones sucked even more in his limited opportunities in September.

Don't get me wrong, I think the trade was just fine. It was worth a shot. But he's been a big disappointment.


I acknowledged his failure from the SLG percentage standpoint. I just don't think you can say he has done nothing. Also, I disagree with your statement he hasn't hit. He hasn't hit for extra bases or in RISP situations, but he has a .260 BA since coming over, not .160.

Has he been a disappointment? Yes. Has he been a flop? No

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:10 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I think the trade was just fine. It was worth a shot. But he's been a big disappointment.

Morneau can only be considered a disappointment if you had high expectations for him. I did not, so I am not disappointed in his performance. He's performed as well as I thought he would, and while that's not particularly impressive, it's still better than Jones.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:25 am 
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How can many of you say that it is still better than Jones?? Who knows what Jones would have done? He has had months where he has carried this team.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:35 am 
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Animal wrote:
He has had months where he has carried this team.


If you are referencing 2013, I think that your opinion is off base.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:54 am 
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Animal wrote:
How can many of you say that it is still better than Jones??


Simple.

Morneau OPS vs. RHP: .819
Jones OPS vs. RHP: .730

+ Morneau with better defense.

I'm no Morneau fan. It's a marginal upgrade. But marginal upgrades are still upgrades.


Animal wrote:
He has had months where he has carried this team.


No he hasn't. His best month was April (for context, Travis Snider also had a great April). He then proceeded to post OPS figures of .635, .657, .636, and .538 in 4 of the other 6 months. Far from "carrying the team" numbers. Oh and before you say it, no it wasn't because he didn't get playing time. He was the starting 1B against RHP for most of the year and got 65-80 ABs every month besides September. He is hitting .196 in the second half of the season. And all of this comes from someone who has extreme platoon splits who can only hit RHP, facing RHP 99% of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Morneau can only be considered a disappointment if you had high expectations for him. I did not, so I am not disappointed in his performance.


Nor did I, though I assume that the FO had higher expectations given that the reason stated for his acquisition was that they saw something tangible in the 9-HR performance he put up in August. He wasn't brought in to be a worse Jose Tabata at an offense-first position. So in that sense I think you can refer to him as a disappointment outside of the fact that he's a de facto marginal upgrade in being a below average player who replaced a very below average player (Jones). The fact that he has 4 XBH in 77 ABs speaks volumes. I think sisyphus is right in that a lot of the clamoring over Morneau is directly tied to Jones being so bad ... a Matt Hague September call-up might have also realistically been a marginal upgrade. Consequently, if Jones had put up Morneau's September statline with zero power I suspect there wouldn't be many Pirates fans talking about him making a lot of improvements and would be talking about how it was a mistake to not upgrade 1B at the deadline


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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:33 pm 
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They both are on the clear downside of their careers.

If Garrett Jones is putting up the numbers Morneau is and batting 4th, this board is in full-on meltdown mode. Clint Barmes is the only regular position player with worse comprehensive offensive numbers.

Morneau shouldn't be anywhere near 4th.

I'm not really disappointed in his performance, I'm just relieved we only took him due to a salary dump. He was never worth giving up something worthwhile for.

Also worth noting he has poor defensive numbers here. Spectacular looking plays are great but it points to him NOT making plays that he should be based on ball speed and placement off the bat. An error of omission doesn't hurt the fielding percentage but does hurt the comprehensive numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: Morneau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:55 pm 
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Yeah, because his jump to save Pedro's throw, and his positioning to throw out Scheirholtz were all "his lack of positioning" :roll:

You can't count on metrics for defense for a little as he's been here. You are, I'm afraid, stuck with the eye test.

And, he's past that with flying colors. Saving throws, smart double play balls. All things you won't see in your metrics and all things he has done.

And, he gets on base so he is not an "out" in the 4 slot so that he creates opportunities for Byrd to create runs.

ZM

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