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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:00 am 
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Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
Guys I'm not asking them to go out and break the bank here. I'm just asking that we go out and get an outfielder so we don't have to trot Nyjer Morgan everyday until McCutchen's ready, and sign a pitcher that is at least better than Duke/Ohlendorf/Karstens/McCutchen.

Reread my post, I'm not advocating a Littlefield type cosmetic signing.

But that is exactly what you are advocating. You're asking for a player that "gives the fan who has never heard of Jose Tabata and Bryan Morris a [sic] more of [sic] reason to go to the games." That is, by definition, a cosmetic fix. All you want is an offseason move that gives the appearance of trying to win. Such a concern has no bearing as to whether such a signing would actually benefit the team.




Please reread my posts. I'm not saying go out and sign Manny and Ben Sheets. I'm not saying go out and break the bank and mortgage the future. I still think Nick Swisher could be had for a prospect or two not named Tabata, McCutchen or Alvarez. And if we could get a solid starter and/or outfielder for 8 million while we wait for some guys in the minors to develop, go for it. In case you didn't notice, THERE ARE HUGE HOLES IN THE LINEUP/ROTATION. I don't think there's anything at all unreasonable about that for either side (the "smart Pirate fan" vs the "drive for 75" Pirate fan)

I didn't realize being a "smart fan" meant that I shouldn't care about 2009 to the point that I should look past the fact that the team is shaping up to finish 32-160 this year. But hey, while we're getting pounded 15-3, lets all pay close attention to see if Nyjer Morgan and Ramon f'ing Vazquez can help us when the time is right in 2011. What fun times in store for us this year! I hope the people working the ticket office selling season ticket packages aren't working for commission.

Pirates Baseball 2009: Come back in 2011.

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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:52 am 
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I would not be upset to bring in Adam Dunn on a one year deal. Think of all his power out to right field. I'm sure if Dunn is producing at his career levels, he can be moved at the deadline and bring McCutchen up.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:00 pm 
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chetthespian wrote:
I would not be upset to bring in Adam Dunn on a one year deal. Think of all his power out to right field. I'm sure if Dunn is producing at his career levels, he can be moved at the deadline and bring McCutchen up.


Dunn is the one player that I could endorse the Pirates actually spending a bit of money to bring in on a multiyear deal. He is young enough to basically carry his value throughout the length of the contract, and doesn't seem to be a high injury risk. Further, he can play outfield this year as needed, and be shifted to 1st with the impending departure of Adam LaRoche. However, I think his price is going to be in the $12-15 mil range, even with the Burrell contract, and will probably take a minimum of a 3 year, if not 4 year deal. Don't see Huntington deviating that far from his plan. And let's keep in mind that being the Pirates, we would probably have to go above that to get him to come to Pittsburgh.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:10 pm 
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I think Dunn is the type of player the Pirates go after when they are looking for final pieces to the puzzle (aka a legit playoff run). As it stands right now, if the Pirates were a 100 piece puzzle, NH is still separating the end pieces from the middle pieces.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
I think Dunn is the type of player the Pirates go after when they are looking for final pieces to the puzzle (aka a legit playoff run). As it stands right now, if the Pirates were a 100 piece puzzle, NH is still separating the end pieces from the middle pieces.


That's not bad considering the 100-piece puzzle he received from the Littlefield Puzzle Company initially had about 95 pieces missing, and the box that it came in had been used as a litterbox by some stray cats.

But I do think you are right in that it isn't the right time for the Pirates to spend on Dunn. My point was that I couldn't fault them for doing so...if you ARE going to spend on the free agent market, Dunn probably makes the most sense. Certainly moreso that 1 year deals to mediocre vets in an attempt to win 75 games this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:26 pm 
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On the pitching side, They wouldn't be blocking anyone's progress if they signed one of the following starters:

Livan Hernandez
Jon Garland
Paul Byrd
Randy Wolf
Braden Looper
Freddy Garcia
Bartolo Colon
Elduque Hernandez
Oliver Perez

or one of these relievers:

Luis Ayala
Keith Foulke
Tom Gordon
Al Reyes
Matt Wise
Matt Herges
Brandon Lyon
Guillermo Mota
Rudy Seanez

All of these guys have performed decently recently. As it stands with this staff, this team is a lock to lose 90 to 100 games, unless Kerrigan is able to work somekind of magic with the likes of Duke, Gorzellany, Ohlendorf, et.al.

The point is, Pirate fans were told that we have $12 million to spend this off season. I say, if you can turn this team from a 95 loss team to an 85 loss team by spending it, then you owe it to the fans to put the best team on the field that you can with the resources you have. And it won't sacrifice 2011. The FA you pick up now is a trading piece in July with which youcan build your system.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:06 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
On the pitching side, They wouldn't be blocking anyone's progress if they signed one of the following starters:

Livan Hernandez
Jon Garland
Paul Byrd
Randy Wolf
Braden Looper
Freddy Garcia
Bartolo Colon
Elduque Hernandez
Oliver Perez

or one of these relievers:

Luis Ayala
Keith Foulke
Tom Gordon
Al Reyes
Matt Wise
Matt Herges
Brandon Lyon
Guillermo Mota
Rudy Seanez



Regarding that list, I would say that among starters, only Garland, Wolf, Ollie, and possibly Looper would interest me. With Lowe signing with the Braves, that almost guarantees the Mets get Ollie or Wolf.

Among relievers, Mota signed with the Dodgers already. Also, the bullpen is the last place I would be spending my money.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:39 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
I think Dunn is the type of player the Pirates go after when they are looking for final pieces to the puzzle (aka a legit playoff run)...


I gotta disagree on this. If this was so, he was a monumental flop in AZ last year in that role. By all accounts under this logic, Az should have made a big pitch to sign him.

I think his attitude toward play (indifferant, certainly not passionate - as NH likes to use) and Kingman-like numbers don't play well on a contender. He is good for an average to below average team with below average expectations.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:05 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Argentum wrote:
I think Dunn is the type of player the Pirates go after when they are looking for final pieces to the puzzle (aka a legit playoff run)...


I gotta disagree on this. If this was so, he was a monumental flop in AZ last year in that role. By all accounts under this logic, Az should have made a big pitch to sign him.

I think his attitude toward play (indifferant, certainly not passionate - as NH likes to use) and Kingman-like numbers don't play well on a contender. He is good for an average to below average team with below average expectations.

ZM


I wasn't really specifying Dunn the player as much as I was what he represents, an upper tier free agent.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:40 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
The point is, Pirate fans were told that we have $12 million to spend this off season. I say, if you can turn this team from a 95 loss team to an 85 loss team by spending it, then you owe it to the fans to put the best team on the field that you can with the resources you have. And it won't sacrifice 2011. The FA you pick up now is a trading piece in July with which youcan build your system.

Or he's a sunk cost that contributes nothing good to the team. See Matt Morris, Jeromy Burnitz, Joe Randa.

There is no way that $12 million will make this team 10 wins better than it is now. Further, I see no cognizable difference between a 75 win team and a 65 win team, except that the former gets a lower draft pick in the following year's draft. Spending money to "turn this team from a 95 loss team to an 85 loss team" is an effort to maintain mediocrity, and such an effort is not wisely taken. See the Pittsburgh Pirates from 2000-2007.

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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:16 pm 
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Dunn is intrigues me only because of the "Kiner Factor". His occassional mega-blasts to RF and the drink would make LaRoche expendable for trade. Forget 4, 5, or 10 extra wins. Think Kiner. Think people in the stands just to see the new SkyBlast (see, a the market campaign is underway) and those folks staying around until the 9th inning of the next 7-2 game just to have little Tommy see "DunnBlast-26" hit the waterway!

That is worth $12M/year and is a tradable commodity when you have more talent.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:33 pm 
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Seriously, I know Hot Stove discussions for Bucs fans come with a large degree of denial, but what makes anyone think Dunn would come to Pittsburgh? As Spring Training approaches and unsigned players are forced to lower their price, thatll mean more suitors for Dunn, not less. Most, if not all, will be much closer to contention and therefore more attractive. So, anyone, please explain to me why he chooses Pittsburgh unless we not just top, but blow away all the other offers, which aint happening.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Seriously, I know Hot Stove discussions for Bucs fans come with a large degree of denial, but what makes anyone think Dunn would come to Pittsburgh? As Spring Training approaches and unsigned players are forced to lower their price, thatll mean more suitors for Dunn, not less. Most, if not all, will be much closer to contention and therefore more attractive. So, anyone, please explain to me why he chooses Pittsburgh unless we not just top, but blow away all the other offers, which aint happening.


I read today that Dunn wants 4 years, $56 mil. I don't see him getting it, but that would be the kind of money the Pirates would have to throw at him, even in a soft market.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Low pressure environ. Probably overpay a bit. Beautiful RF porch that could get him some serious numbers and some serious jack down the road in a new contract.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:45 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Low pressure environ. Probably overpay a bit. Beautiful RF porch that could get him some serious numbers and some serious jack down the road in a new contract.

ZM


What makes you think he'd welcome a low pressure environment, a euphemism for a last place team with no hope? Thats like saying people enjoy getting the flu because it gives them a chance to sleep late and miss work.

Youd have to overpay by more than a bit. It would have to be substantial. As BBF points out, hes looking for 56 over 4 years. I think someone will give him 36 over 3 with an option. We are not going to top that, not by a little, not by alot.

For Dunn, theres only one serious stat number... Homers. Unless he signs with SD, he'll get his 40+ anywhere he plays.


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Then he's looking at 50+ here.

You never know unless you ask. Of the names floated here in the Hot Stove, he is simply the most intriguing guy out there for this franchise in Kiner-bility terms.

I would set a price, offer it and nothing lost if he doesn't take it. Little Tommy is already looking forward to "DunnBlast-1" on opening day.

And yes, I believe Dunn is a player who will perform better for, and also go to, a wayward franchise over a winner.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:19 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:

And yes, I believe Dunn is a player who will perform better for, and also go to, a wayward franchise over a winner.

ZM


Why? He seems like a pretty hard nosed guy to me. What makes you think he wouldnt actually excel on a good team with great protection surrounding him in the lineup?


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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:35 pm 
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His reputation inside baseball, as posited by Kurkuchian (sp), Law, Olney, and others is off a guy who does not compete and does not have a real passion for the game.

He had a real good chance to solidify his status last year in Az, and they let him go without a blink this past year.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:39 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
His reputation inside baseball, as posited by Kurkuchian (sp), Law, Olney, and others is off a guy who does not compete and does not have a real passion for the game.

Isn't this rep largely founded upon an embarrassing (and IIRC later recanted) outburst by Toronto GM J.P. Ricciardi last summer around the trade deadline? Are there any other verifiable grounds for it?

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 Post subject: Re: Is anyone happy with this offseason.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:43 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
His reputation inside baseball, as posited by Kurkuchian (sp), Law, Olney, and others is off a guy who does not compete and does not have a real passion for the game.

He had a real good chance to solidify his status last year in Az, and they let him go without a blink this past year.

ZM


So thats who we want in our clubhouse? A guy who does not compete and has no passion for the game?

Or, have you ever stopped to think he's had no passion, if thats even true, because hes been on a loser all this time, that its tough to generate passion when theres nothing at stake? Did you see the Bay interviews after he went to Boston? It was like a new guy, like he'd just been released from prison.

Arizona didnt try to keep him because hes too expensive, thats it. There was no offensive dropoff when he went to the high pressure world of Arizona.


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