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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:18 am 
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bassoondirector wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
The Pirates just cannot lose games to the dogshit Padres if they want to win the division.

End of story.


Agreed Bucfan...BUT...the Padres have an alarming winning record against the Pirates at PNC Park. Remember what happened last season? The Padres put a stake through the Pirates heart.

I'm not sure what the Bucs have to do, but they need to start winning against this Padre team at PNC. And, the OFFENSE better get the bats going. The Pirates better start scoring runs against this team! (sound familiar?)


During the past 20 years a number of teams have a winning record @ PNC Park


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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:21 am 
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Ralphie wrote:
No offense, as usual. The other pitcher looked good, but then we make opposing pitchers look good.

Obviously our rebuilding process is not done yet.


It just happens. It's baseball. Nothing a team does will keep bats from going quiet occasionally.

Every time this happened before it was "trade, trade, trade". Well, the offense is producing more or less the same as it was before the deadline and we still have games that we scratch by.

There's no solution to bad offensive games. Just gotta chalk it up as a "it's part of the game" and move on. Same goes for the offensive outbursts of 7, 8, 10 runs. It's nice, but not an indication of a team's overall abilities on offense.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am 
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The San Diego Padres are now 29-10 all-time at PNC Park. That's disgusting.

Time to right the ship tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:04 am 
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Ralphie wrote:
Obviously our rebuilding process is not done yet.


If a rebuilding process isn't done when a team is going to win 90+ games, that's a pretty good rebuilding process.

Yeesh people, talk about reactionary. Losses happen when you play 162 games. The Pirates have had less of them happen than 90% of teams in the league this year.


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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:06 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
No offense, as usual. The other pitcher looked good, but then we make opposing pitchers look good.

Obviously our rebuilding process is not done yet.


It just happens. It's baseball. Nothing a team does will keep bats from going quiet occasionally.

Every time this happened before it was "trade, trade, trade". Well, the offense is producing more or less the same as it was before the deadline and we still have games that we scratch by.

There's no solution to bad offensive games. Just gotta chalk it up as a "it's part of the game" and move on. Same goes for the offensive outbursts of 7, 8, 10 runs. It's nice, but not an indication of a team's overall abilities on offense.


I'm not whining about one game. The offense in general is not good enough. And there is a solution - to get better players.

We have basically one really good offensive player. And the results reflect that.

I'm thrilled that we finally have a good team and are in the hunt for a championship. But I look forward to the day when we can score runs at a much better rate.


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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:14 am 
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I just don't think the offense is that bad at all when you look at the other offenses around the league. Especially in the NL, since swapping out a pitcher for a guy who literally did nothing but hit his way into MLB doesn't exactly make for fair comparisons.

It's like the offense will never be good enough unless it's scoring the most runs in baseball.....

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:14 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
It just happens. It's baseball. Nothing a team does will keep bats from going quiet occasionally.

Every time this happened before it was "trade, trade, trade". Well, the offense is producing more or less the same as it was before the deadline and we still have games that we scratch by.

There's no solution to bad offensive games. Just gotta chalk it up as a "it's part of the game" and move on. Same goes for the offensive outbursts of 7, 8, 10 runs. It's nice, but not an indication of a team's overall abilities on offense.

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

I prefer to think of it as thank God we did trade, because where would we be without Byrd's contributions? In the 19 games since he arrived, Pedro has 8 hits and 5 RBIs, Walker has only 4 RBIs and Marte hasn't played at all. Byrd has more RBIs since he's been acquired than Pedro and Walker combined.


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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:17 am 
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val wrote:

I prefer to think of it as thank God we did trade, because where would we be without Byrd's contributions? In the 19 games since he arrived, Pedro has 8 hits and 5 RBIs, Walker has only 4 RBIs and Marte hasn't played at all. Byrd has more RBIs since he's been acquired than Pedro and Walker combined.


Agreed val. I wish we would have made the trades for Byrd and Morneau much sooner. Then again I wasn't the one negotiating so I don't know what the holdup might have been. When all is said the lineup is stronger and the bench is much stronger now than one month ago.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:18 am 
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I definitely think it was good to get a guy with Marte out. But, the moves definitely didn't turn things around, nor was there any move out there that was actually going to.

Byrd was about the best guy out there from a ton of terrible options. It's pretty much been Byrd, Tabata, and Cutch over the past few weeks. Mercer against lefties, too. Which kinda makes it tough when Marte comes back because you're going to need to sit one of your 3 hotter hitters (likely Tabata) so we're back to where we were with our 3 OF carrying us and hoping that Walker turns it around.

Don't get me wrong, I like Byrd, but even if we have Marte healthy then we don't get Tabata's production in August when he put up a 140+ wRC+.

It just wasn't a difference making type of move due to the places we're drawing our offense from.

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Last edited by StarlingArcher on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:24 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Which kinda makes it tough when Marte comes back because you're going to need to sit one of your 3 hotter hitters (likely Tabata) so we're back to where we were with our 3 OF carrying us and hoping that Walker turns it around.


I'm 100% on board with Mercer starting at 2nd when a lefty is throwing. It's time for Walker to ditch his switch hitting, he's dreadful from the right side. It's OK the get Barmes some playing time at SS too.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:26 am 
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RTJR wrote:
Yeesh. Some on this board melt way too easily after one game.

This times 1000. Calm down, people. We're still tied for first place, and we're still going to the playoffs. Even the best teams lose games to bad ball clubs. You all need to chill out.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:27 am 
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IA Pirate wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Which kinda makes it tough when Marte comes back because you're going to need to sit one of your 3 hotter hitters (likely Tabata) so we're back to where we were with our 3 OF carrying us and hoping that Walker turns it around.


I'm 100% on board with Mercer starting at 2nd when a lefty is throwing. It's time for Walker to ditch his switch hitting, he's dreadful from the right side. It's OK the get Barmes some playing time at SS too.


I agree. I would love to see a lefty lineup with Mercer/Harrison at 2nd and 3rd (don't care where) because Alvarez and Walker are just awful against lefties.

I know it's tough taking Pedro out because of the potential, but he's flat-out sucked all year against them. Hurts you WAY more than he potentially helps.

I think that lineup would mash lefties, especially once Marte is back (hits lefties significantly better than righties).

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:07 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
I definitely think it was good to get a guy with Marte out. But, the moves definitely didn't turn things around, nor was there any move out there that was actually going to.

Byrd was about the best guy out there from a ton of terrible options. It's pretty much been Byrd, Tabata, and Cutch over the past few weeks. Mercer against lefties, too. Which kinda makes it tough when Marte comes back because you're going to need to sit one of your 3 hotter hitters (likely Tabata) so we're back to where we were with our 3 OF carrying us and hoping that Walker turns it around.

Don't get me wrong, I like Byrd, but even if we have Marte healthy then we don't get Tabata's production in August when he put up a 140+ wRC+.

It just wasn't a difference making type of move due to the places we're drawing our offense from.

Well, we're 11-8 since Byrd joined us. What if he didn't, and due to weaker production across the lineup, we'd gone 8 - 11? We'd be in third in the Central and the Nats would be "just" six games behind us. Seems like a difference maker to me...

Of course, this is just speculation, but then again, that's what message boards are for.


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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:09 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
I just don't think the offense is that bad at all when you look at the other offenses around the league. Especially in the NL, since swapping out a pitcher for a guy who literally did nothing but hit his way into MLB doesn't exactly make for fair comparisons.

It's like the offense will never be good enough unless it's scoring the most runs in baseball.....


Teams at or below the Pirates' run production in NL:
Florida - 3.2/game (55 wins)
Philadelphia - 3.8/game (69 wins)
New York - 3.9/game (67 wins)
Milwaukee- 3.9/game (65 wins)
San Fransisco - 3.9/game (69 wins)
San Diego - 3.8/game (68 wins)

Bottom Line? There isn't a NL team that is scoring below 4 runs/game that has 70 wins - except the Pirates. You can call it "average" or "not that bad" by whatever measure you'd like, but there run production is at or better than only the scourge of the NL. They are at the bottom of any team that is considered remotely successful. There is no escaping the fact that pitching has more than held up its end of the equation. Its been the offense's production that has far more frequently been the problem.

With the pitcher's production, you don't need the most prolific offense ever and - despite your contention otherwise - I don't see anyone clamoring for that. A slightly above average offense would have this team several games ahead in the divisional standings and likely leading the NL for home field advantage through the playoffs.

My take? Too many players whose offensive production suffers from severe peaks and valleys.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:15 pm 
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I don't like using runs to gauge an offense as there are far too many variables involved.

Defense, baserunning, luck, ballparks. It's just not a good way to gauge the capabilities of one facet of the game when that facet is merely a component of a run.

It's definitely not a neat and tidy stat that can be attributed solely to an offense. It's why Run Creation stats have gained a ton of traction. An offense can control the runs they create. They can't control the runs they get or lose because of defense, baserunning, or luck.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:22 pm 
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val wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
I definitely think it was good to get a guy with Marte out. But, the moves definitely didn't turn things around, nor was there any move out there that was actually going to.

Byrd was about the best guy out there from a ton of terrible options. It's pretty much been Byrd, Tabata, and Cutch over the past few weeks. Mercer against lefties, too. Which kinda makes it tough when Marte comes back because you're going to need to sit one of your 3 hotter hitters (likely Tabata) so we're back to where we were with our 3 OF carrying us and hoping that Walker turns it around.

Don't get me wrong, I like Byrd, but even if we have Marte healthy then we don't get Tabata's production in August when he put up a 140+ wRC+.

It just wasn't a difference making type of move due to the places we're drawing our offense from.

Well, we're 11-8 since Byrd joined us. What if he didn't, and due to weaker production across the lineup, we'd gone 8 - 11? We'd be in third in the Central and the Nats would be "just" six games behind us. Seems like a difference maker to me...

Of course, this is just speculation, but then again, that's what message boards are for.


I agree and I think it's great that they made the move with Marte out. My main point is that Tabata has given us some really strong production, too. So even replacing Tabata with Marte in the coming days....you're pretty much looking at a wash in the every day lineup (offensively, of course) solely due to the places we're getting our offensive contributions.

Byrd has been a tremendous acquisition to shore up the massive hole we had with Marte out. But, Tabata has been good since August 1st, too, so it's not like we can say that we'd add Marte and be back on track, because we're also taking Tabata's bat out.

I think, much like around the All-Star break, they need Walker back on track. One of the 1B getting hot would be nice too. Have to think Jones or Morneau will get on a run that gets them up over a .700 OPS at some point. Given where we are currently, that'd be big.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:56 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
I don't like using runs to gauge an offense as there are far too many variables involved.


I don't like using wins and loses as a gauge for a successful season...

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:06 pm 
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val wrote:
Well, we're 11-8 since Byrd joined us. What if he didn't, and due to weaker production across the lineup, we'd gone 8 - 11? We'd be in third in the Central and the Nats would be "just" six games behind us. Seems like a difference maker to me...

He only seems like a difference maker to you because you present him that way. When you have the ability to create facts as you see fit, anything is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:24 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
I don't like using runs to gauge an offense as there are far too many variables involved.

Defense, baserunning, luck, ballparks. It's just not a good way to gauge the capabilities of one facet of the game when that facet is merely a component of a run.

It's definitely not a neat and tidy stat that can be attributed solely to an offense. It's why Run Creation stats have gained a ton of traction. An offense can control the runs they create. They can't control the runs they get or lose because of defense, baserunning, or luck.


According to FanGraphs, the Pirates have the lowest wRC of any team with a winning record. They may be dead middle of the NL (8th of 15 teams), but no team below them has won 70 games yet.

So . . . using either actual runs scored or an adjusted number based upon a number of factors, you can conclude that the Pirates have the best offense among the lousy NL teams or the worst offense among the good NL teams. Since we all consider this team to be a contender this year . . . desiring stronger and more consistent offensive output doesn't seem to be too out of place.

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 Post subject: Re: September 16, 2013 Padres (68-80) at Pirates (87-62)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Willton wrote:
val wrote:
Well, we're 11-8 since Byrd joined us. What if he didn't, and due to weaker production across the lineup, we'd gone 8 - 11? We'd be in third in the Central and the Nats would be "just" six games behind us. Seems like a difference maker to me...

He only seems like a difference maker to you because you present him that way. When you have the ability to create facts as you see fit, anything is possible.

OK, I made those "projected" win - losses numbers up. But that's not why I'm calling him a difference maker. I'm calling him a difference maker because he has 22 hits and 4 walks (Cutch has 20 and 9 in 18 games) in his 19 games since he joined us. He's got some pop as his 7 doubles and 2 home runs attest. He's driven in 10 runs in that timeframe. More than Cutch (6), Pedro (5) and Walker (4).


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