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Would it be worth a long, damaging labor stoppage to gain a salary cap in Major League Baseball?
Yes. The game needs one at all costs 62%  62%  [ 13 ]
No. In spite of payroll differences, competitive balance is strong 38%  38%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 21
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 Post subject: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:54 pm 
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With the Yankees spending spree this winter, there has been a lot written about whether or not baseball should implement a salary cap when the CBA expires in 2011.

I always talk about competitive balance issues on here (usually saying a salary cap would ultimately be good for the game but the statistics prove it is surviving, and actually thriving without one).

I want to know what everyone thinks, though. It is not simply as easy as "What are the stupid owners waiting for? They need to get off their hands and get this done." And it really isn't as simple as "They need to tell Hank Steinbrenner too bad, we are doing this."

No, the real issue is Donald Fehr, the union head. He would never allow it. That isn't to say it can't be done. Bob Goodenow said the NHL union would never have a salary cap--but here we are, the NHL has a salary cap and Goodenow is working with some Russian league.

That salary cap came at a price, the entire 2004-2005 season. I can't fathom the MLBPA agreeing to a cap without a similar (though most likely longer and more brutal) work stoppage. And baseball fans are not as forgiving as NHL fans were. MLB has been making money hand over fist lately (unlike many NHL teams a few years ago) and competitive balance has been strong, no matter how much the Yanks and Sox spend.

So my question is, is it worth a long, costly labor stoppage to achieve a salary cap in baseball.

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Last edited by Welfare_Fraud on Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:57 pm 
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So anyway, I voted "no." I think the Yankees spending is not really bad for baseball. Teams from all payroll ranges seem to win and lose. Ultimately, it is how you scout, and how you spend it (I feel the Marlins, A's, Twins, Indians, and Rays have proven this in recent years.)

But, the main thing is, I don't think it is worth a season (or more) that would cost so many fans the game would never be able to replace, no matter what the outcome.


I welcome your ideas...

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2008 World Series. Tampa Bay vs. Philadelphia. I am so sick of seeing the same teams succeed in baseball every year!

Formerly "The_Tracy_Turnaround"


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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:15 pm 
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You phrased your question in an interesting way. Is it worth the work stoppage? I guess my question to you is; are we concluding, for the purposes of this discussion, that at the end of a years work stoppage the cap will be in place... or... are you asking if its worth the work stoppage just to find out and risk going through it all simply to end up with the wrong result.

My business just went through a fairly high profile work stoppage that lasted a few months and when it was over I felt it had pretty much been a waste of time and effort, the economic damage a giant hole it will take years to dig ourselves out from.

My feeling is no. Im convinced that baseball is racing towards an avalanche, but until it gets there the battle over this will be too bloody. When teams are making money, and even the small market teams seem to be, theres no great sense of urgency to alter things. And without an absolute understanding/committment from both sides that something needs to be done, Im afraid a work stoppage would be ugly without netting the desired result.


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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:39 pm 
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It's not the salary cap as much as guaranteed salaries that have screwed the game up. That's what I would like to see changed. It will never happen, but that's the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:06 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
It's not the salary cap as much as guaranteed salaries that have screwed the game up. That's what I would like to see changed. It will never happen, but that's the problem.


+1. Something needs to be done is what most of us agree upon. Maybe they could increase the luxury tax. I would like to see a complete restructuring of MLB's divisions and leagues to even it out (like why is there more NL teams than AL - thats dumb). When I ask many people why they don't like baseball, they often say something like it's not exciting because some teams have no chance. Although teams like the Rays prove this wrong, It still would probably be better for baseball to make some changes. I feel that Kingston is right and things like the strength of the players union will ruin baseball someday and MLB will have no choice but to make major changes in the future to preserve the general non-hardcore fan base.


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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:17 am 
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Kingston wrote:
You phrased your question in an interesting way. Is it worth the work stoppage? I guess my question to you is; are we concluding, for the purposes of this discussion, that at the end of a years work stoppage the cap will be in place... or... are you asking if its worth the work stoppage just to find out and risk going through it all simply to end up with the wrong result.
.



Really either. Is the risk worth it? I think too many people think it as easy as "do it, and all will be well." Most of those folks talk about the Yankees as the biggest roadblock to a cap. The Yankees aren't the issue (even though they oppose a cap). The issue is the union, and they won't give in on this issue.

I don't know if we are headed for an avalanche. Pretty much every team in baseball has been competitive enough recently that the fans still are as passionate as ever--and that is what drives revenue. Except for Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, KC and Baltimore, every other team has been involved in a pennant race recently-and that gets the fans to the park and the cash flowing.

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2008 World Series. Tampa Bay vs. Philadelphia. I am so sick of seeing the same teams succeed in baseball every year!

Formerly "The_Tracy_Turnaround"


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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:57 am 
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im going to go find my post i wrote awhile back about this and why i dont think there should be.BRB!


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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:59 am 
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It would be nice to see a salary cap in baseball but without a workstoppage first i don't really see it happening anytime soon just because of how much it would hurt the game.The teams that are the highest salary teams right now would be the most affected by it.I just don't think the game is stable enough to see the big market teams go through what would be nothing short of a depression because of the costs that they would have to cut.
Being a fan of the Pirates it would be a dream to me to see this happen but i don't think baseball is concerned with fans in areas like Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Miami, and other small market areas enough to hurt their big market businesses like both New York teams , Boston , and chicago.
One of those teams draws as many fans and rating as all three of the teams i named combined.


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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:43 am 
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Welfare_Fraud wrote:
I think the Yankees spending is not really bad for baseball


I'm still trying to fathom this comment. I fail to see how the disparity in payroll between the Yankees and everybody else is in any way GOOD for baseball.

In every other sports league in America, the teams are on a level playing field. How can you not want that for baseball?

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:41 am 
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A salary cap without a salary floor would do nothing to ensure competitive balance. Who cares if a cap is set at, say, $120M when the Marlins or Pirates or Royals spend only a third of that with impunity? Even with that system in place, teams like the Yanks or BoSox would enjoy considerable advantages over other teams by being able to pour excess revenues into infrastructure (international scouting, player development, spring training and minor league facilities — hell, the Yanks could Yankee Stadium II in Santo Domingo) while teams like the Twins or Rays would probably have to liquidate same in order to pay the vig.

A revenue cap would do more good than either.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:20 am 
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Salary Cap....It's not going to happen. The last time there was a lock out or strike the owners caved in like they always have.
Look at the numbers

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/33/biz ... ncome.html

The owners of small market teams like the Pirates are doing very well. Why would they want to stop the gravy train? Where is the incentive? Look at the Marlins. The attendance is terrible and they rake it in. From a business standpoint, why would you want to have a higher payroll with no sure thing for winning and risking the sure profit?
Not untill enough teams start to lose money will a salary cap become an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:49 pm 
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There needs to be both a cap and a ceiling. Baseball is so far being the NFL, NBA, and NCAA it's almost laughable.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:48 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
Welfare_Fraud wrote:
I think the Yankees spending is not really bad for baseball


I'm still trying to fathom this comment. I fail to see how the disparity in payroll between the Yankees and everybody else is in any way GOOD for baseball.

In every other sports league in America, the teams are on a level playing field. How can you not want that for baseball?



I fail to see how payroll disparity has really had a negative affect on competitive balance.

I don't think the Yankees spending hurts baseball at all. Baseball is not football. People tune into football games whether their favorite team is in it or not. The other sports don't have that luxury. For whatever reason, superstars being in New York draws people to the games and improves tv viewership-which positively affects the greatest source of revenue.

The superstars have always played for the Yankees. Ruth, Dimaggio, Berra, Maris, Mantle, Reggie Jackson--but people don't talk about how the Yankees were an evil empire in those days.

Plus, World Series ratings seem to be severely affected by the presence of the Yanks.

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2008 World Series. Tampa Bay vs. Philadelphia. I am so sick of seeing the same teams succeed in baseball every year!

Formerly "The_Tracy_Turnaround"


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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:49 pm 
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Shawn Hoffman gives a very convincing argument why a payroll cap and floor is a bad idea.

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.p ... cleid=8409

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:29 pm 
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"If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And right now, baseball is anything but broke"


The NFL's cap is a small piece of the pie that keeps that league running so well. That being said, I hope they work through their issues and we don't lose any games or the cap in the near future.

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2008 World Series. Tampa Bay vs. Philadelphia. I am so sick of seeing the same teams succeed in baseball every year!

Formerly "The_Tracy_Turnaround"


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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:46 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Shawn Hoffman gives a very convincing argument why a payroll cap and floor is a bad idea.

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.p ... cleid=8409


The problem with his premise is that he assumes you would have to sign bad free agents to reach the floor. If the teams with higher payrolls have to stay under a cap, there would be more talented players available. Also, to reach that floor, you could raise payroll with the players you already have if you feel they are part of the future. Give Doumit more now and less later to reach the floor and keep developing until you have the window to where your young talent is ready to compete. Doumit has a lower number for that season and you can bring in higher-end free agents because you give them more money than the Yankees and Dodgers.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:13 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Willton wrote:
Shawn Hoffman gives a very convincing argument why a payroll cap and floor is a bad idea.

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.p ... cleid=8409


The problem with his premise is that he assumes you would have to sign bad free agents to reach the floor. If the teams with higher payrolls have to stay under a cap, there would be more talented players available. Also, to reach that floor, you could raise payroll with the players you already have if you feel they are part of the future. Give Doumit more now and less later to reach the floor and keep developing until you have the window to where your young talent is ready to compete. Doumit has a lower number for that season and you can bring in higher-end free agents because you give them more money than the Yankees and Dodgers.

Spending any money on current players where it is not warranted is the equivalent of signing bad free agents. Why spend more money on a player whose rights you already control when it does nothing to benefit the team in either the short or long term?

The very system of a payroll cap and floor is what creates this mess of how and when one allocate funds just to stay within a predetermined overall payroll range. It causes teams to spend money uneconomically and often in ways that make little sense outside of the cap and floor system. I don't see how this advances the purported goals of a cap and floor system, other than to transfer wealth from the players to the owners.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Willton wrote:
The very system of a payroll cap and floor is what creates this mess of how and when one allocate funds just to stay within a predetermined overall payroll range. It causes teams to spend money uneconomically and often in ways that make little sense outside of the cap and floor system. I don't see how this advances the purported goals of a cap and floor system, other than to transfer wealth from the players to the owners.



He took the premise that the money the players receive is the same, 45%. I disagree it causes teams to spend uneconomically. It causes them to spend. How they spend it is the difference between good and bad management.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:58 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Willton wrote:
The very system of a payroll cap and floor is what creates this mess of how and when one allocate funds just to stay within a predetermined overall payroll range. It causes teams to spend money uneconomically and often in ways that make little sense outside of the cap and floor system. I don't see how this advances the purported goals of a cap and floor system, other than to transfer wealth from the players to the owners.



He took the premise that the money the players receive is the same, 45%. I disagree it causes teams to spend uneconomically. It causes them to spend. How they spend it is the difference between good and bad management.

Often times not spending on payroll is a better decision than spending on payroll. A cap and floor system removes that possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Salary Cap poll
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:05 pm 
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Welfare_Fraud wrote:
With the Yankees spending spree this winter, there has been a lot written about whether or not baseball should implement a salary cap when the CBA expires in 2011.

I always talk about competitive balance issues on here (usually saying a salary cap would ultimately be good for the game but the statistics prove it is surviving, and actually thriving without one).

I want to know what everyone thinks, though. It is not simply as easy as "What are the stupid owners waiting for? They need to get off their hands and get this done." And it really isn't as simple as "They need to tell Hank Steinbrenner too bad, we are doing this."

No, the real issue is Donald Fehr, the union head. He would never allow it. That isn't to say it can't be done. Bob Goodenow said the NHL union would never have a salary cap--but here we are, the NHL has a salary cap and Goodenow is working with some Russian league.

That salary cap came at a price, the entire 2004-2005 season. I can't fathom the MLBPA agreeing to a cap without a similar (though most likely longer and more brutal) work stoppage. And baseball fans are not as forgiving as NHL fans were. MLB has been making money hand over fist lately (unlike many NHL teams a few years ago) and competitive balance has been strong, no matter how much the Yanks and Sox spend.

So my question is, is it worth a long, costly labor stoppage to achieve a salary cap in baseball.

I voted "no" only because there was no selection for "I don't think it matters".

It's a very strong no unless the cap is accompanied with revenue sharing at least as strong as the NFL has. Don't forget, every salary cap comes with a salary floor. Without revenue sharing, that means a low revenue team will NEVER get out of the bottom half of the standings barring incredible luck at drafting and developing players. A salary cap is the best way I can think of to ensure that we get to watch an eternal string of Burnitz's and Randa's.

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