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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:48 am 
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TheShark wrote:
taking a shot on Iwamura as a stopgap bridge to Walker



That seems to be a bit of revisionist history there. If you had said "...taking a shot on Iwamura because we had no one on our depth chart to play 2B..." I'd agree with you. But NH obviously didn't feel Walker was our future at 2B, as he had been moved from 3B to a utility role, playing OF, etc. He didn't start getting reps at 2B until they realized Aki was no better than a pile of elephant dung and they needed a plan B.

The NHater counterarguments would be: why didn't we have other options at 2B? Why didn't they consider Walker at 2B earlier? and/or Why didn't NH know Aki would flop?

In my mind, those are the bigger issues surrounding that move- not the loss of Chavez or the idea that he was taking a flyer on an aged veteran to fill a hole.


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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:04 am 
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Bullish Hitter: That dude was obsessed. Years ago as I was playing around on my favorite Steeler Message board. On it popping out of no where, Bullish Hitter. It was like December. There was 5 or 6 posts from members welcoming new member BH to the board. BH without hesitation went straight to the "I hate everything about Pirate management" topic. He started numerous "this is what the fans should do" threads. Until eventually he was told to go away by a mod.


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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:26 am 
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I think a big thing with the Walker to 2B thing is that it's a position that's often a last resort. You never want to see a first-round guy wind up there because it means the bat didn't play at a corner and the glove didn't play at a tough position. I don't blame them for hoping that 3B or OF worked out, even a LF has more value than a 2B.

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:59 am 
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BBF wrote:
That seems to be a bit of revisionist history there. If you had said "...taking a shot on Iwamura because we had no one on our depth chart to play 2B..." I'd agree with you. But NH obviously didn't feel Walker was our future at 2B, as he had been moved from 3B to a utility role, playing OF, etc. He didn't start getting reps at 2B until they realized Aki was no better than a pile of elephant dung and they needed a plan B.


Actually yeah that was poor wording on my part on the being a bridge to Walker thing (I wrote it late last night and was actually surprised to see it this morning with your quote). But I don't think it should be conceded either that Walker was a non-factor in the plans either. Considering the aforementioned firing sale the year prior and the quality of the farm system at that point, although Walker had struggled in the minors he did have an at least decent year in AAA in 2009. And yeah, what SA said about the position swapping in the minors. But yeah, total slip up on my part with that wording, funny because I can actually recall arguing here several times when people don't realize he didn't turn into a 2B until the Iwamura contingency plan and people arguing they were too conservative with promoting Walker when he simply never hit that well in the minors.

As for the rest of what you said, those are all legitimate criticisms, I can just honestly say I'm content with conceding it was a risk that didn't work out (that cost virtually nothing in return, which is exactly the reason I brought up Chavez as I think that part is largely ignored). And I don't think any GMs are immune to a couple of those during 5+ year tenure.


Last edited by TheShark on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:00 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Let's not pretend that Huntington didn't trade for guys like Aki Iwamura and Robinzon Diaz, give Ramon Vazquez $4 million, and generally sign a bunch of awful veteran players before 2013. My criticisms of those moves are not any less valid after Huntington's 2013 successes. I said all along that he needed to improve his Major League acquisitions; not coincidentally, the year he did so the Pirates are in contention.

Let's also not pretend that Huntington did not trade for Wandy Rodriguez, AJ Burnett, Gaby Sanchez, James MacDonald, Charlie Morton and Joel Hanrahan, while signing guys like Jason Grilli and Octavio Dotel. If you're going to talk about NH's pre-2013 record regarding trades and FA signings for major league talent, you can't just focus on his failures.

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:22 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Let's not pretend that Huntington didn't trade for guys like Aki Iwamura and Robinzon Diaz, give Ramon Vazquez $4 million, and generally sign a bunch of awful veteran players before 2013. My criticisms of those moves are not any less valid after Huntington's 2013 successes. I said all along that he needed to improve his Major League acquisitions; not coincidentally, the year he did so the Pirates are in contention.

Let's also not pretend that Huntington did not trade for Wandy Rodriguez, AJ Burnett, Gaby Sanchez, James MacDonald, Charlie Morton and Joel Hanrahan, while signing guys like Jason Grilli and Octavio Dotel. If you're going to talk about NH's pre-2013 record regarding trades and FA signings for major league talent, you can't just focus on his failures.


You're adorable. Cute, even.

You know I've given NH credit for his pre-2013 successes. But I also don't give him a pass on his terrible moves, as many here have under the umbrella of just "rolling the dice" on guys. He didn't roll the dice on Ramon Vazquez; he gave a horrible player $4 million. As you know, the Pirates need to be very smart with their money.

I believe Huntington has earned an extension at this point, largely due to his moves the last two years. I give him credit for the good; and I don't give him a pass on the bad.


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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:28 pm 
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I think you'd have to set a baseline on the expected success rate of moves like these. I don't have the time or the resources to do so so I really don't know what's good and what's bad.

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Speaking of He who cannot be named, were his posts scrubbed from the site I looked him up on the members list and didn't see him listed.


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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:16 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I think you'd have to set a baseline on the expected success rate of moves like these. I don't have the time or the resources to do so so I really don't know what's good and what's bad.


They do. It's called the standings. Why is everyone so impressed with Huntington in 2013? 81-58. It's not because Liriano or Martin are good, in abstentia; rather, it's because the team -- the amalgamation of all of Huntington's moves -- is actually really good.

Win and be lauded. Lose and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.


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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:02 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I think you'd have to set a baseline on the expected success rate of moves like these. I don't have the time or the resources to do so so I really don't know what's good and what's bad.


They do. It's called the standings. Why is everyone so impressed with Huntington in 2013? 81-58. It's not because Liriano or Martin are good, in abstentia; rather, it's because the team -- the amalgamation of all of Huntington's moves -- is actually really good.

Win and be lauded. Lose and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

That's bullshit. Personnel moves can and should be evaluated on their own merits. Your method fails to account for good moves made while the team is doing poorly and bad moves while the team is doing well. Furthermore, in NH's case, it minimizes the impact of good moves made during 2011 and 2012 that are significantly contributing to the team's success in 2013.

No one was impressed with Huntington in 2012, particularly not you. Yet now many people who wanted Huntington fired last year are now willing to sing his praises, including you. But how has Huntington changed from 2012 to 2013? His methodology for acquiring talent has hardly changed much in one year.

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:04 pm 
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Because DK's scathing articles caused Nutting to force NH to completely revamp his organization, as he'll let you know.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:31 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Because DK's scathing articles caused Nutting to force NH to completely revamp his organization, as he'll let you know.

ZM


This made me laugh . . . hard.
Found myself in Scranton tonight . . . meeting BB for a beer. Go Reds!

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:54 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
Bullish Hitter: That dude was obsessed. Years ago as I was playing around on my favorite Steeler Message board. On it popping out of no where, Bullish Hitter. It was like December. There was 5 or 6 posts from members welcoming new member BH to the board. BH without hesitation went straight to the "I hate everything about Pirate management" topic. He started numerous "this is what the fans should do" threads. Until eventually he was told to go away by a mod.


Seriously? Wow.

Classic. :D

Some people...

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I think you'd have to set a baseline on the expected success rate of moves like these. I don't have the time or the resources to do so so I really don't know what's good and what's bad.


They do. It's called the standings. Why is everyone so impressed with Huntington in 2013? 81-58. It's not because Liriano or Martin are good, in abstentia; rather, it's because the team -- the amalgamation of all of Huntington's moves -- is actually really good.

Win and be lauded. Lose and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

That's bullshit. Personnel moves can and should be evaluated on their own merits. Your method fails to account for good moves made while the team is doing poorly and bad moves while the team is doing well. Furthermore, in NH's case, it minimizes the impact of good moves made during 2011 and 2012 that are significantly contributing to the team's success in 2013.

No one was impressed with Huntington in 2012, particularly not you. Yet now many people who wanted Huntington fired last year are now willing to sing his praises, including you. But how has Huntington changed from 2012 to 2013? His methodology for acquiring talent has hardly changed much in one year.


His methodology (which I've always liked) hasn't changed, but his execution of that methodology has improved. As I said in 2012, NH would need to improve his MLB free agent signings to push the Pirates into true contention. What happened? He signed Martin and Liriano, two keys to the Pirates' 2013 success. Some posters here argued that free agent signings don't matter because those veterans are just placeholders for prospects. I always called bullsh*t on that because winning now still needs to be the goal (albeit not at the expense of the future). NH executed his 2013 plan -- i.e., the specific plan to build this year's team -- far better than in prior years. Specifically, he made moves designed to ensure this team was deep enough to survive injuries and ineffectiveness. Hence the improved product.

GMs are judged by wins and losses. Period. If you make a bunch of great personnel moves but never construct a winning team, who cares?


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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:17 pm 
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He made the exact same moves he made previously. There was no better execution, just better luck from his gambles, plus more of a presence from the farm/trades.

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Yup. It's all luck. Let's just write an algorithm that captures NH's methodology and it'll tell the Pirates what moves to make. Execution is all luck, so it will be just as effective... and cheaper.


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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:49 pm 
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Look at Liriano and look at Bedard. Straight down to their injury history. To say that NH knew something about Liriano but butchered Bedard is attributing a lot of unproven credit to something that is 100% identical to every move NH has made in the past. He didn't deviate one iota in terms of deal length and the player targeted...these ones just happened to work. Good on him, but it's not free agency that did it.

Maybe give him props for sticking to his guns on 2-year deals and finally having a solid crop of guys desperate enough to take them but let's not act like he did anything special. I love NH but the guys who take 2 year deals are the guys who have no other options. Again, Liriano took $1M guaranteed, that's how few teams wanted him. To judge him in free agent signings is viewing things in a vacuum, as he's not exactly making free agent moves with the intention of setting the world on fire.

They're risky moves. The ones he made this time worked spectacularly. Doesn't mean he approached things any better. Risky players are going to naturally lead to the results he's had.

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:12 am 
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Delurking for a moment to note that, when I read this thread yesterday afternoon, there was a post (I don't remember the author, sorry) that mentioned all the combativeness that took place on here late last year when things started going poorly for the Pirates and how the board really hasn't been the same since, in the poster's humble opinion. I notice now that that post has been deleted.

I can't say as I'm surprised to see this, since I made a post last year similarly questioning the direction that the board was heading ... which Bucco Boy then deleted in very short order. It seems our Fearless Leader is a bit thin-skinned when it comes to criticism of his stewardship of this board, and not above abusing his power as moderator to indulge his censorious impulses. That's why I don't post here anymore; I lurk occasionally, because there are a lot of people on here I like and whose opinions I enjoy reading, but Bucco Boy is corrupt with his power and can not be trusted, and obviously, I'm not going to post here under those conditions.

BTW, Bucco Boy: Be a man for once and don't delete this post. I dare you.

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:24 am 
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Judge Landis wrote:
Delurking for a moment to note that, when I read this thread yesterday afternoon, there was a post (I don't remember the author, sorry) that mentioned all the combativeness that took place on here late last year when things started going poorly for the Pirates and how the board really hasn't been the same since, in the poster's humble opinion. I notice now that that post has been deleted.

I can't say as I'm surprised to see this, since I made a post last year similarly questioning the direction that the board was heading ... which Bucco Boy then deleted in very short order. It seems our Fearless Leader is a bit thin-skinned when it comes to criticism of his stewardship of this board, and not above abusing his power as moderator to indulge his censorious impulses. That's why I don't post here anymore; I lurk occasionally, because there are a lot of people on here I like and whose opinions I enjoy reading, but Bucco Boy is corrupt with his power and can not be trusted, and obviously, I'm not going to post here under those conditions.

BTW, Bucco Boy: Be a man for once and don't delete this post. I dare you.


Sorry to disappoint you there Judge, but I haven't deleted a post in over a year. Heck, I have barely been on the board the last three days. You want to keep attacking me because you had a meltdown, go ahead. With my corruption of the UPPMB, next it will be BucsDugout, then the CIA, then.... THE WORLD!!!

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 Post subject: Re: You know who I miss on days like this?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:37 am 
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I'll attack/criticize you because you're a liar and a coward and you abused your power. You decided that I was a problem because ZelieMike and a few of his friends don't like my politics, so you made it intolerable for me so I'd leave. That's disgraceful.

Trump up allegations about my so-called meltdown and mock me all you want. Fact is, I didn't do anything on here that other people don't do all the time. The only difference is, I hold an opinion that was unpopular on this board. If I'd have made the exact same arguments for the opposite side, you wouldn't have felt the need to usher me out of here. You're a petty, pathetic little man, BB.

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