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 Post subject: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:29 am 
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I know you don't want the guy to get hurt worse, but they say he is good for everything, but cannot grip a bat with two hands. So why not at least activate him and if you really need him to, he could pinch run? Or do you all think that is too much of a risk?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:41 am 
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You could just as well give Pie that role if it was solely to be a pinch-runner.

Take no risks, he's an essential part of the offense.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Wasn't a hands-first slide into third at least partially responsible for his current injury?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:18 pm 
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It was...and I certainly realize the risks...but I also think it would be good to have him active just in case. I would not use him unless it was a "game on the line" type of situation where his speed would come into play...and no head first slides!

The kid from the Reds, is it Hamilton?, helped win a game last night with his speed as a PR.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Animal wrote:
The kid from the Reds, is it Hamilton?, helped win a game last night with his speed as a PR.


Hamilton should have been out, Molina's throw beat him but it was off target.

Besides, what's your objection to what I said above about using Pie in that PR role?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:31 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
Hamilton should have been out, Molina's throw beat him but it was off target.

So you mean "If the defense had executed the play perfectly, Hamilton would have been out"?

If I had a nickel for every runner that should have been out but for an off-target throw...


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:38 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
So you mean "If the defense had executed the play perfectly, Hamilton would have been out"?


Didn't have to be "perfect", just had to be an accurate throw that didn't almost go into RF. If you're going to give Hamilton credit for stealing the base, I'm just as inclined to point out that his world class speed/prolific SB abilities in the minors did not beat the throw and therefor he would have been out if it had been a semi-accurate throw. He benefited from luck rather than skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:44 pm 
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I wouldn't activate him until he is ready to play in all aspects of his game. What if he lands funny on that hand/wrist sliding into a base or diving back from a pick off throw and it costs him more time?

I wouldn't do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:47 pm 
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If they did activate Marte to pinch run I'd ask "Why Activate Marte?".

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Animal wrote:
It was...and I certainly realize the risks...but I also think it would be good to have him active just in case. I would not use him unless it was a "game on the line" type of situation where his speed would come into play...and no head first slides!

The kid from the Reds, is it Hamilton?, helped win a game last night with his speed as a PR.

If we really need speed on the base paths, we have Felix Pie. Marte's value lies in his bat and his defense, neither of which he can do with his current injury. Marte should not be playing until he can adequately hit and field.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:21 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
So you mean "If the defense had executed the play perfectly, Hamilton would have been out"?


Didn't have to be "perfect", just had to be an accurate throw that didn't almost go into RF. If you're going to give Hamilton credit for stealing the base, I'm just as inclined to point out that his world class speed/prolific SB abilities in the minors did not beat the throw and therefor he would have been out if it had been a semi-accurate throw. He benefited from luck rather than skill.


Hamilton was in the game for one reason and one reason only. To steal second base. Maness knew it. Molina knew it. The announcers knew it. The crowd knew it. Don't be too quick to discount Hamilton's reputation and the pressure that his speed put on Molina and Maness. With speedy runners on the basepaths, catchers know very well that they must get the throw off quickly and on target. A catcher who is forced to hurry a throw, much like a quarterback who is forced to hurry a pass, is much less likely to get off an accurate throw. Certainly looks to me that Molina released the ball in a hurry and he likely didn't have a good throwing grip on the ball - causing the tail.

Its really no different than when Marte grounds a ball between third and short . . . his speed often forces a defender to make a perfect play; any slight bobble, any misgrip, any throw slightly off line and Marte is safe. Walker . . . he'd be out. Speed and aggression puts pressure on defenses and, last night, Hamilton's speed paid a dividend for the Reds.

I guess that I'm not buying into the whole "he's just lucky" contention.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:46 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
Animal wrote:
The kid from the Reds, is it Hamilton?, helped win a game last night with his speed as a PR.


Hamilton should have been out, Molina's throw beat him but it was off target.

Besides, what's your objection to what I said above about using Pie in that PR role?


First off, many stolen bases come from an off target throw, correct? Doesn't an attempted steal, especially from a really fast guy, create a situation where everything has to be perfect? That is a pretty stupid statement to make.

Secondly, I have NO objection to using Pie as a PH. Is Pie faster than Marte, though? In a situation as I am speaking, a last-ditch effort to win a game, Pie likely would have already been used as a defensive replacement or a PH. I only meant as a last alternative in a possible game winning situation. Not trying to create any argument here...just trying to stimulate a little conversation and see what others think.

And now I see how everyone feels. But I heard an interview with Hurdle where he said that Marte was capable of doing everything except swing a bat.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:48 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I guess that I'm not buying into the whole "he's just lucky" contention.


I am not "discounting" his reputation. Living in Cincinnati, I have known about Hamilton since he was drafted and before he started getting the national media attention for the insane record-breaking SB totals the last few years. I saw him play a couple of times in A-ball Dayton, an hour drive from here (the first of three seasons in the minors that he stole 100+ bases) as well as a few times this year when Louisville was visiting Indianapolis. When I went to see Cole pitch in AAA this year, his only hit given up was a bunt single by Hamilton, who proceeded to steal both second and third (and also in the game, get picked off when taking off for third on a routine fly ball ... I posted a game report here). It was always obvious that he was going to be a special player with SB abilities that rivaled only Ricky Henderson, as extreme as that it is to say. Hitting and defense are a different story. He couldn't stick at SS (despite it being a dire need of the Reds with Cozart flopping) and when moved to the OF, was anticipated to be up way sooner than September considering Ludwick being injured in the first game of the year, but he didn't hit well at AAA at all.

All I said is that if you're going to give Hamilton credit for the steal, I will point out that he is out with an accurate throw and therefor I don't believe that singular first SB was a microcosm of his abilities. Sure, you can give him the full credit since he got the job done regardless of the context or point to other variables like the pressure got to Molina's head, etc. That's perfectly rational and hence I wasn't sure why you bombarded me with such info with what little I had to say about it in just pointing out Molina's throw. I don't think what I said is very extreme in that he's out with a throw that isn't way off target.


Last edited by TheShark on Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Animal wrote:
That is a pretty stupid statement to make.


Hey, if that's how you feel, fine by me. At least now you now how I feel when you make comments like criticizing Ryan Doumit for being big in the "Pittsburgh party scene".


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:41 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
I guess that I'm not buying into the whole "he's just lucky" contention.


I am not "discounting" his reputation. Living in Cincinnati, I have known about Hamilton since he was drafted and before he started getting the national media attention for the insane record-breaking SB totals the last few years. I saw him play a couple of times in A-ball Dayton, an hour drive from here (the first of three seasons in the minors that he stole 100+ bases) as well as a few times this year when Louisville was visiting Indianapolis. When I went to see Cole pitch in AAA this year, his only hit given up was a bunt single by Hamilton, who proceeded to steal both second and third (and also in the game, get picked off when taking off for third on a routine fly ball ... I posted a game report here). It was always obvious that he was going to be a special player with SB abilities that rivaled only Ricky Henderson, as extreme as that it is to say. Hitting and defense are a different story. He couldn't stick at SS (despite it being a dire need of the Reds with Cozart flopping) and when moved to the OF, was anticipated to be up way sooner than September considering Ludwick being injured in the first game of the year, but he didn't hit well at AAA at all.

All I said is that if you're going to give Hamilton credit for the steal, I will point out that he is out with an accurate throw and therefor I don't believe that singular first SB was a microcosm of his abilities. Sure, you can give him the full credit since he got the job done regardless of the context or point to other variables like the pressure got to Molina's head, etc. That's perfectly rational and hence I wasn't sure why you bombarded me with such info with what little I had to say about it in just pointing out Molina's throw. I don't think what I said is very extreme in that he's out with a throw that isn't way off target.


Your words: "he benefited from luck rather than skill."

IMO, there's a lot more to the issue than just "luck." Tried to point out why I didn't buy your "luck, not skill" conclusion. I could have simply stated my conclusion without explanation. Instead, I chose to provide my reasoning to support the conclusion. If you think that is "bombarding" you with information . . . oh well . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:29 am 
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Hey now..we [Bradenton Marauders] gave you a perfectly good, working player and you broke him!

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not Activate Marte?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:16 am 
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The throw was not even within an area code of second base.

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