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 Post subject: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:28 am 
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How 'bout that Garret Jones guy?

So much for Hurdle losing faith in him. Just as with other guys earlier in the year...Hurdle gave him a few days off to clear his head and work with Jay Bell. If Jones plays just to his capabilities, it would be a huge help this last month.

Good win.

Liriano awesome again.

Go Bucs!

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:15 am 
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You get way too excited about one game. He's been absolutely horrible for most of August. Logically, there is no reason to think he'd continue that, but also that he wouldn't be enough to turn the offense around. He's never been that player and he'll never be that player. Give it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:56 am 
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RTJR wrote:
You get way too excited about one game. He's been absolutely horrible for most of August. Logically, there is no reason to think he'd continue that, but also that he wouldn't be enough to turn the offense around. He's never been that player and he'll never be that player. Give it up.


So you are saying, after all the bitching and moaning here about him, that a productive Jones would not be an upgrade to the offense??

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:06 am 
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Sure, and a Clint Barmes that hits .295 and has a bit of power would be, too. The point is, you're projecting abilities that aren't there. Jones is a platoon player; he's never had the consistency to be the type of player you're talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:37 am 
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Let's see what Jones does from now until the end of September...against RH Pitching...that is :idea:

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Animal wrote:
So much for Hurdle losing faith in him. Just as with other guys earlier in the year...Hurdle gave him a few days off to clear his head and work with Jay Bell.


FWIW, I read somewhere (ESPN game recap maybe) that Byrd pulled Jones aside and talked hitting with him for a bit and Jones gave him some credit for helping him out.

[Link] Yep it was ESPN.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:24 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
Sure, and a Clint Barmes that hits .295 and has a bit of power would be, too. The point is, you're projecting abilities that aren't there. Jones is a platoon player; he's never had the consistency to be the type of player you're talking about.


I think what he is saying (at least I will project to what I am thinking!) is that if Jones holds up his end of the platoon with Gabby than that will be a huge shot in the arm for the offense.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Beat 'em Bucs wrote:
RTJR wrote:
Sure, and a Clint Barmes that hits .295 and has a bit of power would be, too. The point is, you're projecting abilities that aren't there. Jones is a platoon player; he's never had the consistency to be the type of player you're talking about.


I think what he is saying (at least I will project to what I am thinking!) is that if Jones holds up his end of the platoon with Gabby than that will be a huge shot in the arm for the offense.


You're absolutely right Beat Em Bucs... but leave it to some here to try and twist things around.

Many feel the need to get an upgraded bat and been calling Morneau that (which he is not)...and many argued that if Jones were performing as he always had against righties that it would be very good for us.

They gave him a few days off and some here said he was done, that management had lost confidence in him.

So he comes back, albeit just for one game, after working hard and has a great game. But that goes against what many were saying about him, so they are not happy despite the fact that it is what is best for the Bucs.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:36 pm 
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I didn't twist anything. You're claiming that Jones can upgrade the offense for the stretch run, meaning that we would need him to be consistent. My point was, Jones is not a consistent player.


Justin Morneau
vs LHP: .248 OBP
vs RHP: .343 OBP
RISP: .348 OBP
RISP w/ two out: .333 OBP
ROB: .339 OBP
HR: 17

Garrett Jones
vs LHP: .143 OBP
vs RHP: .305 OBP
RISP: .308 OBP
RISP w/ two out: .195 OBP
ROB: .260 OBP
HR: 13

While he might not be the cure-all for the offense's woes, Morneau would certainly be an upgrade over Jones.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:57 pm 
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Morneau had a .600 OPS in July, a huge 8/1-8/9 stretch that was undeniably impressive, then went ice cold again. Neither guy is consistent anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:01 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Morneau had a .600 OPS in July, a huge 8/1-8/9 stretch that was undeniably impressive, then went ice cold again. Neither guy is consistent anymore.


As it was stated in another thread somewhere, Morneau was still getting on base during his cold streak.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:08 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
You get way too excited about one game. He's been absolutely horrible for most of August. Logically, there is no reason to think he'd continue that, but also that he wouldn't be enough to turn the offense around. He's never been that player and he'll never be that player. Give it up.

Morneau was absolutely horrible for the month of July, and a week or more of August as well. He's no upgrade over Jones as a hitter, he's just an alternative. Glad we got him, since he came so cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:09 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
I didn't twist anything. You're claiming that Jones can upgrade the offense for the stretch run, meaning that we would need him to be consistent. My point was, Jones is not a consistent player.


Justin Morneau
vs LHP: .248 OBP
vs RHP: .343 OBP
RISP: .348 OBP
RISP w/ two out: .333 OBP
ROB: .339 OBP
HR: 17

Garrett Jones
vs LHP: .143 OBP
vs RHP: .305 OBP
RISP: .308 OBP
RISP w/ two out: .195 OBP
ROB: .260 OBP
HR: 13

While he might not be the cure-all for the offense's woes, Morneau would certainly be an upgrade over Jones.

Not really. Pretty much the same hitter.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:10 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
You get way too excited about one game. He's been absolutely horrible for most of August. Logically, there is no reason to think he'd continue that, but also that he wouldn't be enough to turn the offense around. He's never been that player and he'll never be that player. Give it up.

Morneau was absolutely horrible for the month of July, and a week or more of August as well. He's no upgrade over Jones as a hitter, he's just an alternative. Glad we got him, since he came so cheap.


Incorrect. He's much better than Jones offensively. The numbers show that clearly; Morneau is a better hitter with RISP, in clutch situations, and hits better against left-handers and right-handers. For a team that has had issues bringing in who are on base, Morneau is the perfect kind of upgrade.



RHP: Morneau
LHP: Morneau
AVG: Morneau
OBP: Morneau
OPS: Morneau
Power: Morneau
RISP: Morneau

The list goes on.


Last edited by RTJR on Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:11 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
I didn't twist anything. You're claiming that Jones can upgrade the offense for the stretch run, meaning that we would need him to be consistent. My point was, Jones is not a consistent player.


Justin Morneau
vs LHP: .248 OBP
vs RHP: .343 OBP
RISP: .348 OBP
RISP w/ two out: .333 OBP
ROB: .339 OBP
HR: 17

Garrett Jones
vs LHP: .143 OBP
vs RHP: .305 OBP
RISP: .308 OBP
RISP w/ two out: .195 OBP
ROB: .260 OBP
HR: 13

While he might not be the cure-all for the offense's woes, Morneau would certainly be an upgrade over Jones.

Not really. Pretty much the same hitter.


There's no possible way you can look at that and still believe Morneau = Jones. It's not even close...


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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:14 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
You get way too excited about one game. He's been absolutely horrible for most of August. Logically, there is no reason to think he'd continue that, but also that he wouldn't be enough to turn the offense around. He's never been that player and he'll never be that player. Give it up.

Morneau was absolutely horrible for the month of July, and a week or more of August as well. He's no upgrade over Jones as a hitter, he's just an alternative. Glad we got him, since he came so cheap.


Incorrect. He's much better than Jones offensively. The numbers show that clearly. They may have similar batting averages, but Morneau is a better hitter with RISP, in clutch situations, and hits better against left-handers and right-handers.

No, he's a bit better than Jones offensively, and the numbers show that clearly. Hitting with RISP is not a skill, and I don't give a hoot what either of them do against lefties, because neither of them should be hitting against them. We're talking about a guy who sucked for two months this year versus a guy who sucked for three months this year. Either one of them could have a better September. Hurdle should just go with the hot hand against righties.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:22 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
No, he's a bit better than Jones offensively, and the numbers show that clearly. Hitting with RISP is not a skill, and I don't give a hoot what either of them do against lefties, because neither of them should be hitting against them. We're talking about a guy who sucked for two months this year versus a guy who sucked for three months this year. Either one of them could have a better September. Hurdle should just go with the hot hand against righties.


I'm not saying Morneau is going to tear it up, but he IS a solid upgrade over Jones. They ARE NOT the same.

There's a mental side of the game that comes with certain situations. RISP is one. Coming to the plate with 2 outs and runners on is another, and in that situation, Morneau is likely to get on base 1/3 of the time while Jones is less than 1/5. If you think that isn't significant then there's no point in even having this discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:32 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
No, he's a bit better than Jones offensively, and the numbers show that clearly. Hitting with RISP is not a skill, and I don't give a hoot what either of them do against lefties, because neither of them should be hitting against them. We're talking about a guy who sucked for two months this year versus a guy who sucked for three months this year. Either one of them could have a better September. Hurdle should just go with the hot hand against righties.


I'm not saying Morneau is going to tear it up, but he IS a solid upgrade over Jones. They ARE NOT the same.

There's a mental side of the game that comes with certain situations. RISP is one. Coming to the plate with 2 outs and runners on is another, and in that situation, Morneau is likely to get on base 1/3 of the time while Jones is less than 1/5. If you think that isn't significant then there's no point in even having this discussion.

Hitting with RISP is not a skill. If it was a skill, you'd see the same names among the league leaders every year. Most hitters hit about the same with RISP as they do in every other situation (slightly better, actually), with wild fluctuations from year to year because the same size is so small. This isn't some new theory, it was researched over twenty years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:54 pm 
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You keep saying that like it means something here. Skill or not, it's a measurable statistic that tells us the likelihood of a player reaching base in a certain scenario. Morneau does better in that scenario than Jones and he always has (Morneau .284 avg; Jones .243 avg), especially when you add in 2-outs (Morneau: .279 avg; Jones: .189 avg). This tells us the Jones struggles under pressure situations significantly more than Morneau.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking To Upgrade The Offense For the Stretch Run??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:15 pm 
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For a remaining month+ of the season, I don't really care whether hitting with RiSP is a skill or not. It may just mean that someone has been lucky. At this point, I want the "luckier" batter on the scorecard.


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