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 Post subject: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:04 pm 
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mets-ace-h ... --mlb.html

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For now, the 24-year-old Harvey and the Mets hope that he will be able to avoid reconstruction surgery on the ulnar collateral ligament. A full prognosis will not be made until swelling in the elbow goes down in about two weeks.

''It was tough. Obviously it was the last thing I was expecting when I went this morning,'' Harvey said Monday. ''I am going to do everything I can to avoid surgery.''

The National League's All-Star game starter on his home field this July, Harvey has been experiencing forearm tenderness for a month or two but could not pinpoint exactly when it began. The discomfort increased during his start Saturday against the Detroit Tigers, when he allowed a career-high 13 hits.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Damn shame. Cole might get hit around more than you'd expect because of his delivery (purely a theory), but scouts think it's pretty darn clean so if he can stay healthy I think that's a trade you take.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Appel. He's another guy who faced Harvey-like pitch counts in college.

Between Bundy, Strasburg, now Harvey....hopefully amateur coaches start to take pitch counts more seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:26 pm 
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That is a tough break for the Mets. Pirates fans can commiserate, believe you me.

Also, the near complete lack of success in "rehabbing" a partially torn ligament has to begin playing a role in the decision making process at some point.

The injections, followed by rest, followed by muscle strengthening, followed by gradual increase in use of the elbow, followed by pain, followed by surgery ...

I can understand, 100%, the desire to avoid major surgery like that. However, the alternative is just so dubious that surgery seems a much better option.


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:37 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Between Bundy, Strasburg, now Harvey....hopefully amateur coaches start to take pitch counts more seriously.



Charlie Morton pitched his H.S. ball near where I live. He threw 130+ pitches in several games and would have thrown more had the games gone longer. He had a coach who cared about nothing other than winning, and apparently his parents didn't realize the issues with brutally high pitch counts. I think he was throwing harder in H.S. than he was three years later, and I definitely think what happened in H.S. likely contributed to arm issues down the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
I can understand, 100%, the desire to avoid major surgery like that. However, the alternative is just so dubious that surgery seems a much better option.


To some extent, yes. But given its tremendous success rate (by which I mean it is no longer the kiss of death like a shoulder injury is), and the high failure rate of just resting it, I'd want my player to get it over with and get back on the mound as soon as possible (pending FA's aside).

I recall reading somewhere that amateurs have even had prophylactic TJ surgery with the misguided view that it somehow strengthens the ligament or arm. Those surgeons should lose their medical license.


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:59 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
It'll be interesting to see what happens with Appel. He's another guy who faced Harvey-like pitch counts in college.

Between Bundy, Strasburg, now Harvey....hopefully amateur coaches start to take pitch counts more seriously.

Why would they? They don't work for the professional teams. Amateur coaches have no incentive to monitor the workload of their best pitchers. These pitchers develop their arm problems only after they get drafted and reach the professional ranks; they rarely develop them while in school. And once such a pitcher graduates and/or gets drafted, the pitcher is now someone else's problem.

It is up to the pitcher and his family to prevent such abuse from happening at the college/high school level. Relying on amateur coaches to do it on their own volition is a fool's errand.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:52 am 
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Willton wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
It'll be interesting to see what happens with Appel. He's another guy who faced Harvey-like pitch counts in college.

Between Bundy, Strasburg, now Harvey....hopefully amateur coaches start to take pitch counts more seriously.

Why would they? They don't work for the professional teams. Amateur coaches have no incentive to monitor the workload of their best pitchers. These pitchers develop their arm problems only after they get drafted and reach the professional ranks; they rarely develop them while in school. And once such a pitcher graduates and/or gets drafted, the pitcher is now someone else's problem.

It is up to the pitcher and his family to prevent such abuse from happening at the college/high school level. Relying on amateur coaches to do it on their own volition is a fool's errand.

It matters not that you are not paid to take care of a kids arm. You of all of us with your ethics education must know that using a kid for your own gratification as a coach makes you a total ass. A MAJOR PART OF THE PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY IS THAT VERY ATTITUDE TOWARD OUR FELLOW MAN. I THINK YOUR VIEWS HERE SIMPLY SUCK.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:48 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
It matters not that you are not paid to take care of a kids arm. You of all of us with your ethics education must know that using a kid for your own gratification as a coach makes you a total ass. A MAJOR PART OF THE PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY IS THAT VERY ATTITUDE TOWARD OUR FELLOW MAN. I THINK YOUR VIEWS HERE SIMPLY SUCK.

Can I ask, without snark, do you coach? At any level?


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:33 am 
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I'm an old man now but I absolutely did. Little League baseball, middle school football and wrestling, and years of High school football and wrestling. As such you feel a responsibility toward the young people in your charge. Failing to have helping them as your ultimate goal is a failure of you as a person.

I saw people who used kids for their own goals and ignored the best interest of kids over the years. That is why I feel so strongly about what I said.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:39 am 
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I agree with sub, ESPECIALLY if you are an amateur coach, your obligation is to the well being of the player, not your personal success.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:07 am 
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Bingo! 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:12 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
I'm an old man now but I absolutely did. Little League baseball, middle school football and wrestling, and years of High school football and wrestling. As such you feel a responsibility toward the young people in your charge. Failing to have helping them as your ultimate goal is a failure of you as a person.

I saw people who used kids for their own goals and ignored the best interest of kids over the years. That is why I feel so strongly about what I said.

Thank you for your service. And your compassion. And your conscientiousness.

However, you no doubt know what kind of pressure our "amateur" coaches are under. From parents, clubs, the kids themselves, and from society in general. While the jackass in charge of the Big Red football program in Steubenville is no doubt something of an outlier, he is indicative of the desire to win that is endemic in this country. I've seen coaches who have placed the health and well being of their players ahead of the team won-loss record and be absolutely pilloried for it.

I am somewhat fortunate as a coach in that my sport is soccer, and even in the 21st Century, I've still known more about the game than the kids' parents. I cannot imagine what it must be like to coach an American sport like baseball where every dad thinks himself an expert on the game, second guessing the coach's every decision.

I have started three girls travel soccer teams in the past decade, and lost all three because the parents didn't like my approach to developing young players. Even my good, supportive parents wanted more games, more tournaments (but not necessarily to pay for them) and more wins. I wanted to develop soccer players, while the majority of the parents wanted their daughters developed as strikers or defenders or goalkeepers. At age 9 and 10. When I played, I got myself to practice. Nowadays, if I have 15 girls on a team, I've got a minimum of 10 parents watching practice wondering why I am spending 15 minutes of our 1 1/2 hour practice warming up.

If parents, coaches, society in general really cared about the health and wellbeing of our kids, no one would be playing football.


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 am 
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To say nothing of college (and even high school) coaches who also have pressure from an athletic director, trustees, alumni, etc. to win. Their job is dependent on giving the team the best chance to win. It's a conflict of interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:50 am 
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There is nothing inherently wrong with pressure to win. It is when a coach knowingly abuses a kid to win that the problem occurs. Today's baseball coaches know that having a HS or college pitcher throwing 110-120 pitches and giving them a couple days rest between will ultimately hurt that kids arm. That has nothing to do with parent's watching, and in fact, a watching parent might save that pitcher from long term damage.

That is quite different than teaching the kid how to block and tackle correctly and playing to win the game knowing that there is inherent risk in that sport. If we use inherent risk to call out a game, say football, then I call for the abolition of sports since all have inherent risks. Can't have a kid getting concussions from headers, you know.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:52 am 
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True. To prevent that from happening, we need to just acknowledge that no sport is without risks and legalize Knifeball.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:54 am 
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My $.02.

Willton's comments about the player and the parents possessing responsibility for protecting a child's health against misuse by a coach is dead-on right. A parent does possess that responsibility. And, as difficult as it may be, the athlete has to possess the self-courage to speak up when an injury occurs and his/her health may be at risk. However, that is a much easier to write as a concept than it is to implement in the real world (so says the guy who refused to tell anyone about a likely broken right pinky finger in the middle of his Sophomore year in high school - caught no fewer than 6 games and pitched in 2 games before the coach asked why I was gripping the bat "funny"). The reality is that some coaches care only about their personal win/loss record and a vigilant parent/athlete must be prepared to deal with it.

Sub, ZM, Az and others' comments on the coach's duties are no less accurate. There should be no "winning at any cost" at the amateur level. They possess a duty to protect the health of the amateur athlete to the best of their abilities. Sports comes with the inherent risk of injury and everytime someone laces up the cleats, there is a risk that the athlete's career will be significantly altered in any one game. No coach should exacerbate that risk by placing his interests above the health of the athlete.

The responsibility isn't either/or. The responsibility lies with everyone.

Off the soapbox.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Willton wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
It'll be interesting to see what happens with Appel. He's another guy who faced Harvey-like pitch counts in college.

Between Bundy, Strasburg, now Harvey....hopefully amateur coaches start to take pitch counts more seriously.

Why would they? They don't work for the professional teams. Amateur coaches have no incentive to monitor the workload of their best pitchers. These pitchers develop their arm problems only after they get drafted and reach the professional ranks; they rarely develop them while in school. And once such a pitcher graduates and/or gets drafted, the pitcher is now someone else's problem.

It is up to the pitcher and his family to prevent such abuse from happening at the college/high school level. Relying on amateur coaches to do it on their own volition is a fool's errand.

It matters not that you are not paid to take care of a kids arm. You of all of us with your ethics education must know that using a kid for your own gratification as a coach makes you a total ass. A MAJOR PART OF THE PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY IS THAT VERY ATTITUDE TOWARD OUR FELLOW MAN. I THINK YOUR VIEWS HERE SIMPLY SUCK.

I am fully aware of that, and I too think it is a tragedy that high school and college pitchers tend to get ruined by the coaches who think only about themselves. I know it sucks, but I also know it is a reality. And while I have an ethical mandate to do what I believe is right, amateur coaches do not.

Moreover, amateur coaches are pressured to win by the athletic director, the boosters, and even the players. And in some cases, that pressure to win comes at the expense of the health of their players. The star pitcher has thrown 100 pitches? Well, have him throw some more, because we need this win. The left tackle has a broken finger? Wrap his arm in a cast and get him back out there, we need this win. The star point guard tweaked his ankle? Wrap it in tape and get him back on the court, we need this win. The star linebacker just took a shot to the head in a helmet-to-helmet collision? Check if he can distinguish two fingers from three and send him back out there, we need this win.

This is the attitude that prevails in amateur athletics: they view the players as fungible resources and a means to an end that will be dispatched after a set amount of time. And while that's sad, that's also an economic reality. If you want amateur coaches to be more concerned about the long-term health of their pitchers' arms, then you have to give them an incentive to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Willton wrote:
And while I have an ethical mandate to do what I believe is right, amateur coaches do not.


I disagree with this. I very much believe that a coach is bound by the ethics of the profession as well as the entity for which he works.

Willton wrote:
This is the attitude that prevails in amateur athletics: they view the players as fungible resources and a means to an end that will be dispatched after a set amount of time. And while that's sad, that's also economics. If you want amateur coaches to be more concerned about the long-term health of their pitchers' arms, then you have to give them an incentive to do so.


This is an over-reach. While that attitude may exist with some, I firmly believe that it is far from the "prevailing" attitude in amateur athletics. I've seen contrary evidence in baseball, football, basketball, volleyball and gymnastics.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:06 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Willton wrote:
This is the attitude that prevails in amateur athletics: they view the players as fungible resources and a means to an end that will be dispatched after a set amount of time. And while that's sad, that's also economics. If you want amateur coaches to be more concerned about the long-term health of their pitchers' arms, then you have to give them an incentive to do so.


This is an over-reach. While that attitude may exist with some, I firmly believe that it is far from the "prevailing" attitude in amateur athletics. I've seen contrary evidence in baseball, football, basketball, volleyball and gymnastics.

I'm guessing that the majority of your evidence comes from programs that don't bring a whole lot of money. And I'm betting that most, if not all, amateur athletic programs would not have the attitude I described above if there was no money involved. Money is the major factor here in pushing a coach to act in the interests of the program, rather than the interests of the players.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Harvey Has A Torn Ligament In Elbow
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Willton wrote:
that the majority of your evidence comes from programs that don't bring a whole lot of money. And I'm betting that most, if not all, amateur athletic programs would not have the attitude I described above if there was no money involved. Money is the major factor here in pushing a coach to act in the interests of the program, rather than the interests of the players.


Well, most amateur programs DON'T make money. You reference a contingent of upper level, large colleges here, and a few AAU programs that make sneaker company guys rich. Most programs are HS, little league, Baby Ruth leagues with no earning income present.

ZM

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