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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:11 pm 
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I like Gaby. I think he is a great part of the platoon and he hits LH very well.

So what?

He has had 100 plate appearances against Lefties. So, yeah, praise a guy who can get the job done for 25 starts (about one a week), against a lefty. Let's forget that guy is even MORE horrible against RHP (which he has had twice as many ABs against) to the tune of .203/.301/.623. I guess it's managements fault. If they only played him against lefties, he could be a Hall of Famer.

Platoons are great. Sometimes, it's the best way to get the most out of a position, but way too much is made out of a guy having success or a lack thereof against lefties when we face them so rarely.

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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:54 pm 
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bassoondirector wrote:
If you want to defend him because he supposedly hits better against LHP, fine. And I'll end this back and forth with a few questions. When was the last time Sanchez drove in a run against a LHP? Further, how many runs has Sanchez driven in against LH Pitchers? And, did those runs make a difference in the games he did manage to drive in? I would venture to say, if you decide to do the research and find the answers to my questions (you can, I'm too lazy :D ), you probably won't be that impressed.


RBIs mean nothing to me when evaluating a player so honestly those questions are meaningless to me. Just know that he isn't "supposedly" better against LHP like you phrased, he is excellent against LHP. But if you think a lack of RBIs trumps the .958 OPS and team-best walk rate, feel free.


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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Animal wrote:
So, yeah, praise a guy who can get the job done for 25 starts (about one a week), against a lefty. Let's forget that guy is even MORE horrible against RHP (which he has had twice as many ABs against) to the tune of .203/.301/.623.


"Even MORE horrible" against RHP? Wouldn't that mean you're implying that he's horrible against LHP as well which isn't true?

As far as the acquisition that he's being praised too highly when he's only getting limited ABs against LHP, I am responding to the comments like basoondirector's that, quote, he is a "BIG reason the offense is weak", which isn't close to being true and is very obviously completely ignoring what he does against LHP which is his role on this team.

At any rate, bizarrely it sounds to me like Gaby has become a scapegoat for the 1B platoon as a whole due to awful year Garrett Jones is having. If Jones was hitting RHP like he has over his career, the 1B platoon would be above average and very effective. Jones has completely tanked however while Gaby is hitting LHP better than ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:14 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
bassoondirector wrote:
If you want to defend him because he supposedly hits better against LHP, fine. And I'll end this back and forth with a few questions. When was the last time Sanchez drove in a run against a LHP? Further, how many runs has Sanchez driven in against LH Pitchers? And, did those runs make a difference in the games he did manage to drive in? I would venture to say, if you decide to do the research and find the answers to my questions (you can, I'm too lazy :D ), you probably won't be that impressed.


RBIs mean nothing to me when evaluating a player so honestly those questions are meaningless to me. Just know that he isn't "supposedly" better against LHP like you phrased, he is excellent against LHP. But if you think a lack of RBIs trumps the .958 OPS and team-best walk rate, feel free.


Jim Johnson is also the best closer in baseball and Max Scherzer is way better than Clayton Kershaw.

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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:25 pm 
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Gaby drives in a run off a LHP! 2-0 Bucs! Way to go Gaby...I might change my mind about him Shark if he starts producing... :D

PS: Consider me old fashioned. Driving in runs in scoring position and RBI's are important in my book... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:32 pm 
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bassoondirector wrote:
Gaby drives in a run off a LHP! 2-0 Bucs! Way to go Gaby...I might change my mind about him Shark if he starts producing... :D

PS: Consider me old fashioned. Driving in runs in scoring position and RBI's are important in my book... :D


I guess we are just dinosaurs BD...I too consider hitting HR, driving in runs, and scoring runs to be important.

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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:41 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
His August batting line is now .121/.224/.276, and his post-All Star break line is .188/.269/.385. At some point, you gotta pull the plug.

July OPS:
Jones - .804, Morneau - .596

August OPS:
Jones - .500, Morneau - .868

September OPS:
A coin toss. I see no reason, not a single one, to believe that Morneau and Jones will both continue to hit the same in September as they did in August.


Agreed but what about April, May and June?

Jones also out-hit Morneau in April, all of 2012, and all of 2011.

I'm all over this deal if Morneau comes with a time machine that sends him back to 2010, though.

It comes down to whether or not you believe that a guy who has sucked for two months this season is going to perform better than a guy who has sucked for three months this season. It's a coin toss.

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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:46 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
His August batting line is now .121/.224/.276, and his post-All Star break line is .188/.269/.385. At some point, you gotta pull the plug.

July OPS:
Jones - .804, Morneau - .596

August OPS:
Jones - .500, Morneau - .868

September OPS:
A coin toss. I see no reason, not a single one, to believe that Morneau and Jones will both continue to hit the same in September as they did in August.


Look at the full 2013 season's worth of numbers and you'll see that Morneau has significantly out-performed Jones against RHP in average, OBP, and slugging percentage.

Acccordingly, I have five months of data suggesting that Morneau has been and will be a better player than Jones for the balance of the year.


No you don't. You have five months of data proving that Morneau has been better over the last five months. You are guessing that this will continue. I have two careers worth of data that suggests that Jones is a better September hitter than Morneau is by a margin of .765 to .727, but I'm not silly enough to say that this means Jones will out-hit Morneau this September. It's 50/50, or close enough to that to make even a C level prospect too much to give up.

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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:47 pm 
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Animal wrote:
I guess we are just dinosaurs BD...I too consider hitting HR, driving in runs, and scoring runs to be important.


Creating and scoring runs are important, I agree. Which is precisely why I am defending Gaby, because his OPS against LHP and the team's best BB rate help do exactly that.


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 Post subject: Re: Garrett Jones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:52 pm 
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bassoondirector wrote:
Shark, if you want to defend Sanchez go right ahead. I know I would not want him at the plate in a critical situation. I've wanted him to drive in many runs over the course of the season with runners in scoring position and he's failed.

If you want to defend him because he supposedly hits better against LHP, fine. And I'll end this back and forth with a few questions. When was the last time Sanchez drove in a run against a LHP? Further, how many runs has Sanchez driven in against LH Pitchers? And, did those runs make a difference in the games he did manage to drive in? I would venture to say, if you decide to do the research and find the answers to my questions (you can, I'm too lazy :D ), you probably won't be that impressed.

He's not just better against left handers. He's one of the best hitting first basemen in major league baseball against left handers. He's second to Paul Goldschmidt for all first basemen with at least 60 ABs against lefties.

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