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 Post subject: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:54 am 
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If so, where does that put the Pirates? Good hitting? I don't think so (and I'm talking about team hitting).

Point is, if the Pirates run into a decent pitcher on a good night, I don't like our odds with our offense.

But with the Pirate offense, I'm not sure it has to be a good pitcher or even a decent pitcher that will beat this Pirate offense. I'm wondering how good a pitcher has to be to beat this Pirate offense. Just okay?

I'm wondering...just wondering...

Again, I'm trying to stay positive. I do believe the Bucs will not collapse and they will make it to the playoffs. How far they go into the playoffs with this offense is another story. If pitching wears down the end of the year (which I believe it does), it's the offense that needs to put more runs on the board. That applies to every team. I'm not sure if this Pirate offense can do that.

Of course, everything is relative. It will depend on how good the opposing pitchers are when the Pirates face them in the playoffs.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:36 am 
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Every time. Hitters don't have much time to react at the plate, a fraction of a second. That's not much time. How many times have you heard this on a swing and miss? He couldn't adjust, couldn't pick up spin of the ball. Spin of the ball? It has more to do with keeping the back side shut and the hands back, willing to take the ball to opposite field. And then there are times where the batter turns around a great pitch but its rare. The bucs scored their loan run on a Cutch sacrifice fly but Cutch was fooled on an of speed pitch down and away with a 2-0 count. Average to good hitters swing and miss on that pitch or roll over on it.

Pitching, there has to be command and the ability to change speeds. Maddox dominated with command, rarely found the heart. His velocity was low 90s. Consistency from pitchers is what makes a pitcher great. Liriano, early in the season, didn't command his fastball. Now he is and he's growing stronger. That doesn't mean he's always invincible. He left alot of pitches over the heart in Colorado and he paid the price. Kennedy, he had control of all his pitches yesterday. He kept nailing the corner, outside and inside all day. He struck out Martin on his second at bat with change up after change up and he threw them as strikes or what looked like was going to be a strike. That's hard to do. Command.


Last edited by buccosfan77 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:01 am 
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buccosfan77 wrote:
It has more to do with keeping the back side shut and the hands back, willing to take the ball to opposite field.

And that's what I think is the BIGGEST problem with all of the Pirate hitters. They want to pull the ball and not use the opposite field. You would think Hurdle and Jay Bell know this and see this and preach to their players to drive the ball to the opposite field?

Is it that they can't do this or are just not willing to do this?

It is very frustrating to watch.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am 
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Yes, absolutely. The same is essentially true in most other team sports. If the opposing team doesn't score or scores very little, the team has a chance to win.

Just look at the SD series. The Pirates allowed 1, 1, and 2 runs and won 2 of 3 games and I'd expect that to happen 9 of 10 times when the staff gives up 4 runs in a series.

Also, if you look at team pitching statistics, you'll see that Atlanta, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and St Louis are the top 5 in team ERA. They're also the top 5 in runs allowed per game. It's no mistake that those five teams are the top five in the NL right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Quote:
But with the Pirate offense, I'm not sure it has to be a good pitcher or even a decent pitcher that will beat this Pirate offense.


Quote:
It will depend on how good the opposing pitchers are when the Pirates face them in the playoffs.


Sorry Tom, but two conflicting statements in the same post.

Let's be positive and enjoy the ride.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:06 pm 
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For the most part, the Pirate losses this season has been due to them not scoring enough runs versus the pitching not doing their job.

Are opposing pitchers that good all of the time or does the problem fall on the shoulders of the Pirate hitters themselves?

I'm not sure how successful the Pirates will be when they do make the playoffs. And it's because it's their offense not being able to score enough runs to win a short series against "good-decent-okay" (you can pick any adjective you want) pitchers.

I still maintain it's the Pirate players that don't on a regular basis use the opposite field. Opposing pitchers consistently pitch down and away to most of the Pirate players. And the Pirate batters chase those pitches down and away and many times those pitches are not in the strike zone...ie: GI Jones.

I'm enjoying the ride Bertie...believe me I am...I'm just not convinced how successful the Pirates will be once they do make it to the post season...and it's because of their questionable offense.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:01 pm 
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bassoondirector wrote:
If so, where does that put the Pirates?


74-52.


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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Good pitching beats hitting every single time. This is the most dominant stretch of pitching we've seen in years. Jed Hoyer (Cubs GM) was talking in an article yesterday about how he hasn't seen pitching this good in 30 years, mostly in terms of depth of quality guys. I have no idea how accurate that is, but the stats definitely point to the pitching really ramping up in the last couple of years.

It's really not that shocking....the pitcher is the one in control at all times. The batter is at the mercy of the pitcher, and when even the very best get out far more often than not, a step up in pitching is naturally going to cause offense to go down all around baseball (which it has, and when you see the teams ranked behind the Pirates you can see they really aren't in that bad of shape).

Steroids also probably helped offense, but I haven't found anything that was really able to quantify exactly how much....but the pitching dominance started in around 2010 so there's definite correlation. Just not necessarily causation re: steroids.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:18 pm 
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Technically league average pitching gets out good hitting. An all star batter is only successful 30% of the time.
;)

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:24 am 
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bassoondirector wrote:
If so, where does that put the Pirates? Good hitting? I don't think so (and I'm talking about team hitting).

Point is, if the Pirates run into a decent pitcher on a good night, I don't like our odds with our offense.

But with the Pirate offense, I'm not sure it has to be a good pitcher or even a decent pitcher that will beat this Pirate offense. I'm wondering how good a pitcher has to be to beat this Pirate offense. Just okay?

I'm wondering...just wondering...

Again, I'm trying to stay positive. I do believe the Bucs will not collapse and they will make it to the playoffs. How far they go into the playoffs with this offense is another story. If pitching wears down the end of the year (which I believe it does), it's the offense that needs to put more runs on the board. That applies to every team. I'm not sure if this Pirate offense can do that.

Of course, everything is relative. It will depend on how good the opposing pitchers are when the Pirates face them in the playoffs.

The Pirates are fourth in the NL in runs scored since the All Star break. They are ninth in runs allowed since the All Star break. If you're going to worry, start worrying about the right thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:31 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Good pitching beats hitting every single time.

Not in 1971 or 1979 it didn't. The O's had better season ERAs than the Bucs both times, and did it in 1979 despite having to face a DH all year.

Quote:
This is the most dominant stretch of pitching we've seen in years. Jed Hoyer (Cubs GM) was talking in an article yesterday about how he hasn't seen pitching this good in 30 years, mostly in terms of depth of quality guys. I have no idea how accurate that is, but the stats definitely point to the pitching really ramping up in the last couple of years.

It's really not that shocking....the pitcher is the one in control at all times. The batter is at the mercy of the pitcher, and when even the very best get out far more often than not, a step up in pitching is naturally going to cause offense to go down all around baseball (which it has, and when you see the teams ranked behind the Pirates you can see they really aren't in that bad of shape).

Steroids also probably helped offense, but I haven't found anything that was really able to quantify exactly how much....but the pitching dominance started in around 2010 so there's definite correlation. Just not necessarily causation re: steroids.

Would you be shocked if a story came out stating that MLB deadened the ball? I sure wouldn't. I doubt that steroids had much to do with anything, especially because the pitchers were using them, not just the hitters.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:11 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Good pitching beats hitting every single time.

Not in 1971 or 1979 it didn't. The O's had better season ERAs than the Bucs both times, and did it in 1979 despite having to face a DH all year.

Would you be shocked if a story came out stating that MLB deadened the ball? I sure wouldn't. I doubt that steroids had much to do with anything, especially because the pitchers were using them, not just the hitters.


True, more meant that if a pitcher is pitching well, it's going to beat a strong offense. Guys will get shelled occasionally, it happens, but a pitcher that's on his game is usually pretty darn solid against most offenses.

And no, a dead ball wouldn't shock me in the least. Nothing would be overly shocking to me that comes out explaining the lack of offense around the time MLB wanted steroids out of the game. I'm definitely open to different theories and don't like just chalking things up to steroids without concrete evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:21 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Good pitching beats hitting every single time.

Not in 1971 or 1979 it didn't. The O's had better season ERAs than the Bucs both times, and did it in 1979 despite having to face a DH all year.

Would you be shocked if a story came out stating that MLB deadened the ball? I sure wouldn't. I doubt that steroids had much to do with anything, especially because the pitchers were using them, not just the hitters.


True, more meant that if a pitcher is pitching well, it's going to beat a strong offense. Guys will get shelled occasionally, it happens, but a pitcher that's on his game is usually pretty darn solid against most offenses.

And no, a dead ball wouldn't shock me in the least. Nothing would be overly shocking to me that comes out explaining the lack of offense around the time MLB wanted steroids out of the game. I'm definitely open to different theories and don't like just chalking things up to steroids without concrete evidence.

I could see the dumb asses in charge of MLB deadening the ball so that they could keep Congress at bay. Not that I have a problem with today's run environment; it's a lot closer to the one that I grew up watching.

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 Post subject: Re: Good pitching beats good hitting?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Ah, the steroid truther comes out once again. They don't make hitter stronger, why just look at Sosa and Bond's body types.... :roll:

ZM

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