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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:38 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Yeah he might make 5M with the courtesy bump. Arbitration heavily rewards HR and his has plummeted. Still, Pirates wouldn't have to kick in cash since Jones is an easy non-tender.


Arbitration weights plate appearances even more heavily. PiratesProspects projects Jones to make about $6 million in 2014.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:40 pm 
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I guess what im saying is that even if the Pirates tossed in 500,000 for the Twins to take Jones. It would save them money in the long run. They have no need to keep 2.5 first basemen. Maybe Sanchez is the guy moving on. Jones is a little more versatile and would still PH from the left side.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:41 pm 
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At this point I have come to realize StarlingArcher does not want the Pirates to improve at any position on the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:42 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Yeah he might make 5M with the courtesy bump. Arbitration heavily rewards HR and his has plummeted. Still, Pirates wouldn't have to kick in cash since Jones is an easy non-tender.


Arbitration weights plate appearances even more heavily. PiratesProspects projects Jones to make about $6 million in 2014.


They made that prior to the year. Safe to say, Jones did NOT do anything to bump himself up to that level.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:43 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
At this point I have come to realize StarlingArcher does not want the Pirates to improve at any position on the field.


Yeah, Alex Rios is really tearing it up for the Rangers with that 2nd wind he had in him.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:43 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Not really. Not over such a tiny window. Less than a win in the aggregate and disconcerting when the number discrepancy is based on a 2 week stretch.

Don't really buy the glove is that much better. Morneau has a -0.2 UZR/150 and Jones has a -0.8 UZR/150. That's pretty minor at even a defensive premium position and inconsequential at a place like 1B.


One game could mean the division or the playoffs for the Pirates. If it doesn't cost a top prospect, why not upgrade at first base? Jones is scuffling and his numbers for the year are way down. Morneau has an sOPS+ of 122 against RHP and has put up 31 doubles and 15 home runs this season so far. He has a better glove and -- though you may not think this matters -- he has post-season experience.

I'd love to add a guy with his resume to the Pirates' clubhouse.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:45 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
At this point I have come to realize StarlingArcher does not want the Pirates to improve at any position on the field.


:lol:

Upgrades of 90 points of OPS don't matter over a month-and-a-half of the regular season and in the post-season, IA! You're being silly!


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Because if Morneau goes back to playing like he was before these torrid 2 weeks, he's not an upgrade.

We're clamoring for him because of a hot streak.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:46 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Yeah, Alex Rios is really tearing it up for the Rangers with that 2nd wind he had in him.


Has nothing to do with Rios. It has everything to do with arguing against every single rumored trade that has been talked about on this board. He costs too much, the OPS isn't a big enough difference, he doesn't hit for power, his defense isn't that much better, etc. Broken record.

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Last edited by IA Pirate on Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:47 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Yeah he might make 5M with the courtesy bump. Arbitration heavily rewards HR and his has plummeted. Still, Pirates wouldn't have to kick in cash since Jones is an easy non-tender.


Arbitration weights plate appearances even more heavily. PiratesProspects projects Jones to make about $6 million in 2014.


They made that prior to the year. Safe to say, Jones did NOT do anything to bump himself up to that level.



Look SA, you have to admit that ^^^^ right there^^^you dont think much of Jones. so given that Jones has had all season to do something and didnt that maybe Morneau should or could add more offense?


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:48 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Yeah, Alex Rios is really tearing it up for the Rangers with that 2nd wind he had in him.


Has nothing to do with Rios. It has everything to do with arguing against every single rumored trade that has been talked about on this board. He costs too much, the OBP isn't a big enough difference, he doesn't hit for power, his defense isn't that much better, etc. Broken record.


So the fact that this trade market was regarded as one of the weakest in recent memory holds zero water when I say that 99% of the players rumored aren't worth upgrading?

Lest we forget, I was one of the more vocal proponents of dealing Taillon, Polanco, Sanchez, and another pitcher for Stanton.

I have no issues making trades, but I'm not going to trade for a name.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:49 pm 
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The next question is..Is Morneau an upgrade over Sanchez?


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:51 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Because if Morneau goes back to playing like he was before these torrid 2 weeks, he's not an upgrade.

We're clamoring for him because of a hot streak.

Archer - all that is left is a small sample size. Most of the season is done.

Jones could not hit the water if he fell out of a boat right now. The Pirates don't need Morneau to remain sizzling hot, just be a little above league average, and he destroys what Jones gives the Pirates for the rest of the season.

And the significant improvement in OBP and slugging matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:51 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
Look SA, you have to admit that ^^^^ right there^^^you dont think much of Jones. so given that Jones has had all season to do something and didnt that maybe Morneau should or could add more offense?


My stance is clear....I don't like gambling on SSS. It's a bad way to run a ball club. Morneau's production had been below Jones' all year until this hot streak. He was one of the guys I tracked near the deadline. I think any player in baseball is capable of adding more or less offense over the stretch run, because any player is capable of a hot streak. They're also capable of cold streaks. But I'm not trying to make moves based on hoping those streaks work out for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Because if Morneau goes back to playing like he was before these torrid 2 weeks, he's not an upgrade.

We're clamoring for him because of a hot streak.

Archer - all that is left is a small sample size. Most of the season is done.

Jones could not hit the water if he fell out of a boat right now. The Pirates don't need Morneau to remain sizzling hot, just be a little above league average, and he destroys what Jones gives the Pirates for the rest of the season.

And the significant improvement in OBP and slugging matter.


Yup. If Morneau performs the rest of the year as he has over the balance of 2013, he's a significant upgrade over Jones. Period.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:57 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
The Rotten One wrote:
Look SA, you have to admit that ^^^^ right there^^^you dont think much of Jones. so given that Jones has had all season to do something and didnt that maybe Morneau should or could add more offense?


My stance is clear....I don't like gambling on SSS. It's a bad way to run a ball club. Morneau's production had been below Jones' all year until this hot streak. He was one of the guys I tracked near the deadline. I think any player in baseball is capable of adding more or less offense over the stretch run, because any player is capable of a hot streak. They're also capable of cold streaks. But I'm not trying to make moves based on hoping those streaks work out for me.


I'm not focused on the hot streak at all. I'm focused on his TOTAL NUMBERS. You can't ignore the hot streak, just like you can't ignore the cold streak. If Morneau performs for the rest of the year as he has over the whole of 2013, he's a signficant upgrade. Period.

And what would the Pirates be giving up? A marginal prospect, a veteran (who's likely redundant or unlikely to be retained for 2014), and maybe some cash? That ain't much. And it's certainly worth gambling in a year in which the Pirates are 74-51 and leading their division.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:59 pm 
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I'm under no preconceived notion that Justin Morneau would be the second coming of Jesus Christ Andrew McCutchen, I firmly believe that the team would be stronger with him in the lineup than they would be with Garrett Jones. I am not a believer that the WAR statistic translates to actual wins.

I'm more inclined to believe that Morneau would assist in the run creation department and the run prevention department. And . . . I see no reason not to try to improve upon the existing roster. Even if the uptick is slight.

I'll put it in the "every little bit helps" category.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:00 pm 
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[quote="StarlingArcher"][quote="The Rotten One"]
My stance is clear....I don't like gambling on SSS. It's a bad way to run a ball club. Morneau's production had been below Jones' all year until this hot streak. quote]


You know the Dodgers performed below the Pirates production until their hot streak. :D


Last edited by Corsair on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:01 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I'm under no preconceived notion that Justin Morneau would be the second coming of Jesus Christ Andrew McCutchen, I firmly believe that the team would be stronger with him in the lineup than they would be with Garrett Jones. I am not a believer that the WAR statistic translates to actual wins.

I'm more inclined to believe that Morneau would assist in the run creation department and the run prevention department. And . . . I see no reason not to try to improve upon the existing roster. Even if the uptick is slight.

I'll put it in the "every little bit helps" category.


I also don't discount the benefit of bringing in a player with post-season experience. He won't be blinded by the October lights.

Nothing wrong with making the club better.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Morneau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:01 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
I guess what im saying is that even if the Pirates tossed in 500,000 for the Twins to take Jones. It would save them money in the long run. They have no need to keep 2.5 first basemen. Maybe Sanchez is the guy moving on. Jones is a little more versatile and would still PH from the left side.



Why would Sanchez go? You still need him, even with Morneau around.

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