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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:17 pm 
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val wrote:
Except that Gabby is seeing almost twice as many right handed pitchers as lefties: 129 ABs vs 68. That's only about 17 games worth of superior production. And it's not like Jones has spent that much time in RF -- he's got 63 ABs as a RF, or about 15 games. Regardless of how much of this is Hurdle's doing, Gabby is taking too many swings vs righties.


You answered your own question. Gaby can't control the fact that the bench is so poor that Hurdle frequently uses him against RHP. That isn't an argument against the fact that if used properly, he is doing his job of hitting LHP and making the 1B platoon with Jones effective.


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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:17 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
val wrote:
Except that Gabby is seeing almost twice as many right handed pitchers as lefties: 129 ABs vs 68. That's only about 17 games worth of superior production. And it's not like Jones has spent that much time in RF -- he's got 63 ABs as a RF, or about 15 games. Regardless of how much of this is Hurdle's doing, Gabby is taking too many swings vs righties.


You answered your own question. Gaby can't control the fact that the bench is so poor that Hurdle frequently uses him against RHP. That isn't an argument against the fact that if used properly, he is doing his job of hitting LHP and making the 1B platoon with Jones effective.

What am I missing here? It's not effective because Gaby is hitting too many righties. If Jones has got 63 ABs playing RF, can we assume that 63 of Gaby's ABs vs righties have occurred because of that? If so, he's still gotten 1/3 of his total ABs vs righties for reasons other than weak bench. That's not an effective 1B platoon.


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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:58 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
How has Canzler been doing?

BR.com says he has a .544 OPS in 15 games, but does anyone know if it is that bad?

.544 at Indy, .768 for the season in AAA.


I meant more in an 'eye test' or 'scouting' sort of way.

As in: Is he making 'loud' outs, is he working counts, is he at least mashing lefties, how's his defense, etc. or are the stats indicative of general struggles?

Sorry, wish I could answer that, but I haven't heard anything along that line.

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:59 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
TheShark wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
I think they should just DFA Tabata and Snider


Tabata signed a contract extension through 2019. He's not getting DFA'd.


Wasn't it a 6 year worth $1.5 million? If so, I say eat it.

If you think that Tabata is a bad fouth outfielder, you have no idea what a fourth outfielder looks like.

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:02 pm 
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val wrote:
What am I missing here? It's not effective because Gaby is hitting too many righties. If Jones has got 63 ABs playing RF, can we assume that 63 of Gaby's ABs vs righties have occurred because of that? If so, he's still gotten 1/3 of his total ABs vs righties for reasons other than weak bench. That's not an effective 1B platoon.


I don't know what you're "missing" because I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. First you were saying that short end f a platoon players are only marginally effective and then when the 1B platoon was pointed out you talked about Gaby seeing too much RHP which is a different topic entirely. One thing you're missing though is saying that the 1B platoon isn't effective. It's slightly above league average statistically (103 OPS+). Now, let's take Gaby out of that equation. Yes, you don't face LHP nearly as much as you do RHP, but alas, when your 1B hits LHP worse than a utility infielder (Jones), your production is going to go way, way down if he isn't given a platoon partner who can hit those LHP, and hit them exceptionally well. Thus, Gaby is doing his job hitting those LHP at an excellent clip, while Jones has disappointed, probably by natural regression, and not hitting RHP to his career norms.

I don't see how the fact that Gaby has been given a ton of RHP ABs effects the original discussion of you wanting to diminish the value of a platoon player. If the Pirates have a stronger bench and/or everyday RF, the Jones/Gaby platoon works exclusively at 1B like was the plan going into the season. Your point that he is seeing too many ABs against RHP is something everyone agrees with. But the original point was that platoon players that mash LHP are invaluable. The Gaby/Jones platoon is just one of hundres of examples that proves that it can work is constructed properly. That on it's basis is something completely different than the team/individual-centric point about Hurdle giving Gaby too many RHP ABs.


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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:08 pm 
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bassoondirector wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
bassoondirector wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, RF has been and still is a black hole for the Pirates. Time to move on and see if the players you mentioned can do a better job...because Tabata and Snider are not doing the job in RF, especially on the offensive side of the coin. They are not, IMHO, everyday players and are at best Bench/Platoon players...and that's debatable.

Kinda hard for Snider to do much from the DL.

Good thing they're not trying to play any of those guys every day.

Know what Lambo and Canzler are?

Platoon players. One can't hit lefties, the other can't hit righties.


sisy, what I'm trying to say (I guess not that well) is that the Pirates have not had a steady every day Right Fielder for a long time. I'm not sure if I can even remember who that might have been. Quite frankly, I'm tired of these "part time-platoon-bench" players occupying RF. Maybe that's how it's going to have to be for a long time (it's been a long time...for me anyways), but I'd like to see a major upgrade in RF...someday! :shock:

They had part time platoon players in right back in 1992. And at first. And behind the plate. No regular at third, either. Platoons aren't a bad thing, they are a good thing. The problem with the current right fielders isn't that they are a platoon combo, it's that neither of them is all that good. Tabata is back to playing Punch and Judy at the plate, and Presley is an out machine. Neither is worth much defensively, either.

I'm pretty close to the point where I say go ahead and bring up Lambo to platoon with Tabata. I wish there was a better right handed alternative, but I just don't see one, and the Pirates need help a lot more against righties than they do against lefties anyway. A lot of people seem to think the opposite, but they're dead wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:09 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The Pirates could send down Alex Presley and Josh Harrison and call up Andrew Lambo and Russ Canzler. They could do that. I wouldn't be averse to that, but they'd also have to be willing to really play those guys a good bit. I'm not sure Clint Hurdle is ready to do that.

I don't see him going with one backup infielder under any circumstance.

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:12 pm 
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val wrote:
Except that Gabby is seeing almost twice as many right handed pitchers as lefties: 129 ABs vs 68. That's only about 17 games worth of superior production. And it's not like Jones has spent that much time in RF -- he's got 63 ABs as a RF, or about 15 games. Regardless of how much of this is Hurdle's doing, Gabby is taking too many swings vs righties.

ALL of it is Hurdle's doing. Who the heck do you think it is who sends him out there against righties?

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Yes, its Hurdle's doing but it is largely dictated by Jones having an iron glove, Tabata's injury and Snider's offensive effectiveness taking a nose dive.

If Snider or Presley can be productive on offense, Sanchez won't be playing against righties. If Jones were more solid with the glove, you wouldn't see Sanchez being a defensive replacement in the 6th or 7th innings.

Hurdle is playing the cards that he's been dealt. And, based upon the record, he's been doing it well.

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Get Lambo up here for now. The job is Polanco's eventually, possibly as early as next June.

No need to DFA anyone at this piont in time.


Try 2015. Polanco will not be here next June.


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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:10 pm 
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The bottom line is this. The issues we have at RF now are the same issues we are having in 2014. Polanco has 39 games at AA, he won't be a June call up next year. This shouldn't be a surprise with NH.

Stargling Marte had better numbers than Polanco and look how long NH kept him there. Anyone who thinks that Polanco will be here by June next year is fooling themselves, that's not how the Pirates operate. If it wasn't for the injuries to the starting pitchers Cole wouldn't even be here right now.


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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:36 pm 
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I also can't understand why people hate Tabata. He's like the only non-Cutch player in the lineup that doesn't strike out very often. I understand that he's not great, but, he is hated pretty hard in Pittsburgh.

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Who's the third outfielder?

What it boils down to is the platoon in right field I is terrible. There isn't any slugging from that position. Jones is underachieving at first base and I question his defensive IQ. He also needs to start tearing up right handed pitching.


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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:10 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I also can't understand why people hate Tabata. He's like the only non-Cutch player in the lineup that doesn't strike out very often. I understand that he's not great, but, he is hated pretty hard in Pittsburgh.


'Black Sheep' syndrome (not Cutch, not Marte).

Tons of hype coming from NY. Tons of success/flashes of talent early. Mediocrity since.

In a way, he's the 'Shard Mendenhall of the Pirates.

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:56 pm 
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We should put Tabata in RF to solve the problem. Oh, sorry he might be there tonight. F you guys!

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:55 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Stargling Marte had better numbers than Polanco and look how long NH kept him there.


The hesitation with Marte was due to his plate discipline issues (and judging from this year, it's pretty clear that those issues are as prevalent as ever). Polanco does not have that problem, hence his mid-season promotion to AA this year.


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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:05 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I also can't understand why people hate Tabata. He's like the only non-Cutch player in the lineup that doesn't strike out very often. I understand that he's not great, but, he is hated pretty hard in Pittsburgh.


I think some of it is that some issues ("speculations" rather) came up last year regarding issues regarding effort and hustle. At one point early in the season he was constantly being called lazy and then it was reported that his health might not be at 100%. He also gained some weight and lost a lot of the speed which made him a great basestealer in the minors and hurt his above average defense.

Also, to NS's point, yeah, he just fell off really quickly after the rookie season. At this point I think some common fans actually forget that he was supposed to be one of the building pieces along with McCutchen and Alvarez. But given that he play a position that people expect power to come from, not hitting for average and barely hitting balls out of the infield will cause those reactions.


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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:08 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I also can't understand why people hate Tabata. He's like the only non-Cutch player in the lineup that doesn't strike out very often. I understand that he's not great, but, he is hated pretty hard in Pittsburgh.


I agree. I have no problem with Tabata as the RF. I actually liked last night's lineup with Tabata at #6 followed by Walker at #7. A couple years back these guys were #1 and #2 and set the table pretty good.

You are not going to get GREAT production out of every spot in the order. I can live with Tabata in RF. I always liked Snider, but he really has not done much. I think I prefer Presley as the #4 OF, but I can live with either of them. I would really like to see the Bucs stick with Tabata in RF full time and see what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: RF going forward
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Animal wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I also can't understand why people hate Tabata. He's like the only non-Cutch player in the lineup that doesn't strike out very often. I understand that he's not great, but, he is hated pretty hard in Pittsburgh.


I agree. I have no problem with Tabata as the RF. I actually liked last night's lineup with Tabata at #6 followed by Walker at #7. A couple years back these guys were #1 and #2 and set the table pretty good.

You are not going to get GREAT production out of every spot in the order. I can live with Tabata in RF. I always liked Snider, but he really has not done much. I think I prefer Presley as the #4 OF, but I can live with either of them. I would really like to see the Bucs stick with Tabata in RF full time and see what happens.


I don't mind Tabata in RF as long as you are getting decent production at 1B. What the Pirates are truly lacking is a true leadoff hitter. Marte isn't that guy, he strikes out too much and has more potential as a true corner outfielder, a 25 homer guy that can knock in runs.

Polanco will probably turn out to be a true leadoff hitter. High OBP, walks alot, steals bases.

Tabata is going to be a GREAT 4th outfielder for this team. Can play all OF positions, can hit at the top or bottom of the order, doesn't strike out a lot and has some speed.


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