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RF going forward
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Author:  doug frobel [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  RF going forward

I think they should just DFA Tabata and Snider if they have no options, or trade them for a bucket of BP balls, and bring up Canzler and Lambo to platoon. Canzler's splits have been tremendous against lefties, and he can play several positions. I don't think either of the former two players will amount to much. I also seriously doubt that Jose Tabata was born in 1988.

Author:  bassoondirector [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

As far as I'm concerned, RF has been and still is a black hole for the Pirates. Time to move on and see if the players you mentioned can do a better job...because Tabata and Snider are not doing the job in RF, especially on the offensive side of the coin. They are not, IMHO, everyday players and are at best Bench/Platoon players...and that's debatable.

Author:  NSMaster56 [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

How has Canzler been doing?

BR.com says he has a .544 OPS in 15 games, but does anyone know if it is that bad?

Author:  sisyphus [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

NSMaster56 wrote:
How has Canzler been doing?

BR.com says he has a .544 OPS in 15 games, but does anyone know if it is that bad?

.544 at Indy, .768 for the season in AAA.

Author:  sisyphus [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

bassoondirector wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, RF has been and still is a black hole for the Pirates. Time to move on and see if the players you mentioned can do a better job...because Tabata and Snider are not doing the job in RF, especially on the offensive side of the coin. They are not, IMHO, everyday players and are at best Bench/Platoon players...and that's debatable.

Kinda hard for Snider to do much from the DL.

Good thing they're not trying to play any of those guys every day.

Know what Lambo and Canzler are?

Platoon players. One can't hit lefties, the other can't hit righties.

Author:  NSMaster56 [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

sisyphus wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
How has Canzler been doing?

BR.com says he has a .544 OPS in 15 games, but does anyone know if it is that bad?

.544 at Indy, .768 for the season in AAA.


I meant more in an 'eye test' or 'scouting' sort of way.

As in: Is he making 'loud' outs, is he working counts, is he at least mashing lefties, how's his defense, etc. or are the stats indicative of general struggles?

Author:  doug frobel [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

sisyphus wrote:
bassoondirector wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, RF has been and still is a black hole for the Pirates. Time to move on and see if the players you mentioned can do a better job...because Tabata and Snider are not doing the job in RF, especially on the offensive side of the coin. They are not, IMHO, everyday players and are at best Bench/Platoon players...and that's debatable.

Kinda hard for Snider to do much from the DL.

Good thing they're not trying to play any of those guys every day.

Know what Lambo and Canzler are?

Platoon players. One can't hit lefties, the other can't hit righties.


Which is why I was recommending a platoon...

Author:  TheShark [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

NSMaster56 wrote:
As in: Is he making 'loud' outs, is he working counts, is he at least mashing lefties, how's his defense, etc. or are the stats indicative of general struggles?


On the season he is crushing lefties with a 1.210 OPS. In Indianapolis he has no platoon split at all but only has 15 ABs against LHP (and 46 ABs overall). Hopefully he improves and doesn't become another Jerry Sands.

Author:  TheShark [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

doug frobel wrote:
I think they should just DFA Tabata and Snider


Tabata signed a contract extension through 2019. He's not getting DFA'd.

Author:  StarlingArcher [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

I really have no issues with Tabata as long as he keeps getting on base. That gets undervalued in OPS, but is valuable. He has a solid BB% and a low K%, that's not going to do anything to hurt this team over the course of the season.

Author:  doug frobel [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

TheShark wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
I think they should just DFA Tabata and Snider


Tabata signed a contract extension through 2019. He's not getting DFA'd.


Wasn't it a 6 year worth $1.5 million? If so, I say eat it.

Author:  bassoondirector [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

sisyphus wrote:
bassoondirector wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, RF has been and still is a black hole for the Pirates. Time to move on and see if the players you mentioned can do a better job...because Tabata and Snider are not doing the job in RF, especially on the offensive side of the coin. They are not, IMHO, everyday players and are at best Bench/Platoon players...and that's debatable.

Kinda hard for Snider to do much from the DL.

Good thing they're not trying to play any of those guys every day.

Know what Lambo and Canzler are?

Platoon players. One can't hit lefties, the other can't hit righties.


sisy, what I'm trying to say (I guess not that well) is that the Pirates have not had a steady every day Right Fielder for a long time. I'm not sure if I can even remember who that might have been. Quite frankly, I'm tired of these "part time-platoon-bench" players occupying RF. Maybe that's how it's going to have to be for a long time (it's been a long time...for me anyways), but I'd like to see a major upgrade in RF...someday! :shock:

Author:  val [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

bassoondirector wrote:

sisy, what I'm trying to say (I guess not that well) is that the Pirates have not had a steady every day Right Fielder for a long time. I'm not sure if I can even remember who that might have been. Quite frankly, I'm tired of these "part time-platoon-bench" players occupying RF. Maybe that's how it's going to have to be for a long time (it's been a long time...for me anyways), but I'd like to see a major upgrade in RF...someday! :shock:

Guys who mash lefties are not that impressive, since only about, what 20% of pitchers are lefties. Platoon splits, it seems to me, are a way to maximize what you can get out of marginal players. And that's all well and good, except that they're, well, marginal.....

Author:  JollyRoger [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

I wouldn't be surprised if they utilize the 250k buyout in 2017 but Jose will be on the team until then.

Author:  bassoondirector [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

val wrote:
bassoondirector wrote:

sisy, what I'm trying to say (I guess not that well) is that the Pirates have not had a steady every day Right Fielder for a long time. I'm not sure if I can even remember who that might have been. Quite frankly, I'm tired of these "part time-platoon-bench" players occupying RF. Maybe that's how it's going to have to be for a long time (it's been a long time...for me anyways), but I'd like to see a major upgrade in RF...someday! :shock:

Guys who mash lefties are not that impressive, since only about, what 20% of pitchers are lefties. Platoon splits, it seems to me, are a way to maximize what you can get out of marginal players. And that's all well and good, except that they're, well, marginal.....


"Marginal" is a great way to word it val. That's who the Pirates have had in RF for a long time...marginal players, and it's definitely effecting the offense for the worse.

Author:  Ralphie [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

Get Lambo up here for now. The job is Polanco's eventually, possibly as early as next June.

No need to DFA anyone at this piont in time.

Author:  J_C_Steel [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

The Pirates could send down Alex Presley and Josh Harrison and call up Andrew Lambo and Russ Canzler. They could do that. I wouldn't be averse to that, but they'd also have to be willing to really play those guys a good bit. I'm not sure Clint Hurdle is ready to do that.

Author:  TheShark [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

val wrote:
Guys who mash lefties are not that impressive, since only about, what 20% of pitchers are lefties. Platoon splits, it seems to me, are a way to maximize what you can get out of marginal players. And that's all well and good, except that they're, well, marginal.....


They are not overvalued to begin with. There's a reason they are frequently called the "short end" of the platoon. In fact, I might actually call them undervalued because common fans often seem to not realize what their role is or ignore it to focus on their final statline which includes playing to the platoon disadvantage.

Dismissing the platoon advantage because lefty mashers don't face as many ABs would be to ignore what it is in the first place. If done correctly, you can get good production from utilizing the platoon advantage. Case in point, Garrett Jones for the past five years and the 1B production this year. You're welcome to call Gaby Sanchez "marginal" or what have you, but the reality is that he is posting a 1.061 against LHP while Jones has a career OPS of .575.

Furthermore, an emphasis on platoons would not be as significant if you did not have half of a line-up who can't hit LHP ... Alvarez, Walker and Tabata/Snider and Barmes. The line-up as a whole has gotten a huge boost from Mercer's ability to crush LHP as well, it was much more dire prior to that.

Author:  StarlingArcher [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

The only reason we have above average production from 1B is Gaby Sanchez's side of the platoon.

Garrett Jones has a 114 wRC+ against righties. Very respectable. But he has a NEGATIVE 55 wRC+ against lefties. That's horrid. Beyond horrid. 100 is considered league average. Jones isn't a 55, which would mean he produces 55% of what the average player would against a lefty. He's a NEGATIVE 55.

Gaby Sanchez, OTOH, has a 199 wRC+ against lefties. That's exceptional. It means he's producing almost 100% better than an average player would against lefties. If we have Jones as the every day 1B, that position is a glaring weak spot....but Gaby keeps it respectable. For those curious, Gaby has a 76 against righties...so he's not really an every day 1B answer either.

Author:  val [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RF going forward

Except that Gabby is seeing almost twice as many right handed pitchers as lefties: 129 ABs vs 68. That's only about 17 games worth of superior production. And it's not like Jones has spent that much time in RF -- he's got 63 ABs as a RF, or about 15 games. Regardless of how much of this is Hurdle's doing, Gabby is taking too many swings vs righties.

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