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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:10 pm 
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Im sorta sorry Tommy John didnt win 12 more games in his career. It would have made an interesting test case to see if 300 would be the magical number for induction.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:19 pm 
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BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
It is truly amazing how experienced writers, GM's, managers, players, and others who disagree with how you do things, are so often a
Quote:
f***ing joke
.

ZM


I suppose, ZM, that you can provide a rational argument for why a system that includes ANY votes for Mo Vaughn isn't a joke.



I really dont disagree with you, but since Im bored today ill play. The reason the Mo Vaughn votes dont make the system a joke:

Look, in any vote that involves humans theres going to be some element of sentimentality, a vote for a personal favorite. Its a flaw in the system, but really, what have the votes for Vaughn really accomplished? Clearly, cooler heads prevailed and hes nowhere near induction. Yet, a player who had some fine years has a small and brief moment of recognition and rememberance. No one really believes Jay Bell is a HOF'er. But Im glad he got his 2 votes today. Its just nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:47 pm 
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I think the shame of it all is McGwire not making it...He did nothing against MLB's rules during his career...

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For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:51 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
I think the shame of it all is McGwire not making it...He did nothing against MLB's rules during his career...


Id be more inclined to agree with you were it not for that despicable display in front of Congress.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I think the shame of it all is McGwire not making it...He did nothing against MLB's rules during his career...


Id be more inclined to agree with you were it not for that despicable display in front of Congress.


He was pretty much forced to be there testifying because a book Canseco wrote to try to black ball MLB and some of its stars, and Congress decided it needed to step in since it had nothing better to do....I'm sure glad Congress cracked down on Steroids once they made sure the economy was fixed, the war in Iraq was complete, and looking into the cause of high gas prices.

What he did or did not say in Congress should have no bearing at all as to what he did on the field enhanced or not...He did nothing against the rules and was out of baseball 2 years after rules were put in place.

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:12 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
I think the shame of it all is McGwire not making it...He did nothing against MLB's rules during his career...


Just because it wasn't a rule back then, does it make it right? Does it make him just as deserving as other great players from his era like Cal Ripken, Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas, etc who didn't have to inject themselves with steroids in order to be great?

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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:19 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Kingston wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I think the shame of it all is McGwire not making it...He did nothing against MLB's rules during his career...


Id be more inclined to agree with you were it not for that despicable display in front of Congress.


He was pretty much forced to be there testifying because a book Canseco wrote to try to black ball MLB and some of its stars, and Congress decided it needed to step in since it had nothing better to do....I'm sure glad Congress cracked down on Steroids once they made sure the economy was fixed, the war in Iraq was complete, and looking into the cause of high gas prices.

What he did or did not say in Congress should have no bearing at all as to what he did on the field enhanced or not...He did nothing against the rules and was out of baseball 2 years after rules were put in place.


Theres a lot of truth in that, so why wasnt he more forthcoming? Why did he act like a guilty man trying to conceal something? Forgetting whether Congress is full of it or not, McGwire chose protecting his reputation above candor and as a result he became the poster boy for performance enhancers, legal or otherwise. He was undone by his own vanity, and as I mentioned in another post, voters are human.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:20 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I think the shame of it all is McGwire not making it...He did nothing against MLB's rules during his career...


Just because it wasn't a rule back then, does it make it right? Does it make him just as deserving as other great players from his era like Cal Ripken, Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas, etc who didn't have to inject themselves with steroids in order to be great?



Again here's the next question: How do you know they weren't taking things too?

I'd be willing to guess Cal took a few things to help a tweak or a strain that would be against the rules now to help extend his Iron Man Streak, Griffey- Just cuz you take steroids doesnt mean you will look like Hulk Hogan, Frank Thomas- He was putting up huge numbers too then his body started breaking down...

You dont know those guys werent shooting up, just because they are nice guys and all and dont fit the typical Juiced Player with bulging biceps...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:43 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Theres a lot of truth in that, so why wasnt he more forthcoming? Why did he act like a guilty man trying to conceal something? Forgetting whether Congress is full of it or not, McGwire chose protecting his reputation above candor and as a result he became the poster boy for performance enhancers, legal or otherwise. He was undone by his own vanity, and as I mentioned in another post, voters are human.


If you were retired from your company for 3 or 4 years and were called to ask about things going on in your company that weren't against any policy that are now legal and who you might have acquired these things from, would you have squealed?

As for the baseball writers, some of these people think their votes make them the most powerful people because they have the vote...There is no reason someone like Ricky Henderson should not have gotten 100% of the vote...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:47 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Theres a lot of truth in that, so why wasnt he more forthcoming? Why did he act like a guilty man trying to conceal something? Forgetting whether Congress is full of it or not, McGwire chose protecting his reputation above candor and as a result he became the poster boy for performance enhancers, legal or otherwise. He was undone by his own vanity, and as I mentioned in another post, voters are human.


If you were retired from your company for 3 or 4 years and were called to ask about things going on in your company that weren't against any policy that are now legal and who you might have acquired these things from, would you have squealed?


Maybe not. I like to think Idve stuck up for myself the same way youre sticking up for McGwire, defiantly testifying openly and honestly about the things I did and why they werent wrong at the time. If I didnt however and chose to play it like McGwire did, i suppose Id have to accept the consequences.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:47 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
omgardd wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I think the shame of it all is McGwire not making it...He did nothing against MLB's rules during his career...


Just because it wasn't a rule back then, does it make it right? Does it make him just as deserving as other great players from his era like Cal Ripken, Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas, etc who didn't have to inject themselves with steroids in order to be great?



Again here's the next question: How do you know they weren't taking things too?

I'd be willing to guess Cal took a few things to help a tweak or a strain that would be against the rules now to help extend his Iron Man Streak, Griffey- Just cuz you take steroids doesnt mean you will look like Hulk Hogan, Frank Thomas- He was putting up huge numbers too then his body started breaking down...

You dont know those guys werent shooting up, just because they are nice guys and all and dont fit the typical Juiced Player with bulging biceps...


Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't believe any of these players I mentioned were anything but clean, and unlike McGwire, achieved their greatness the right way.

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"What other businesses do you expect to lose money for your entertainment?"-- UPPMB


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:52 pm 
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I hate to sound so cynical, but in circumstances like these what matters is who gets caught. Id be willing to bet the eight 1919 Sox werent the only players to throw a game for money back then either. Those other guys just werent caught.


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