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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Willton wrote:
First of all, saves don't mean sh**.


While I certainly agree that saves are vastly overrated, precedent was set with the induction of Rollie Fingers. To quote his bio on the HoF website:

Quote:
Rollie Fingers' 17-year career epitomized the emergence of the modern-day relief ace. After watching him post inconsistent results as a starter, the A's moved Fingers to the bullpen. He excelled quickly and frequently in his new role. Relying on a sharp slider, Fingers went on to notch 341 career saves. Known for his handlebar mustache, Fingers became a familiar site during the post-season, appearing in 16 World Series games. He won both the American League MVP and Cy Young Award with the Brewers in 1981.


In my opinion, you can't flippantly dismiss the stat if it's being used to ascertain worthiness to induction.

Another reason why I hate the Hall's voting process.........

I was not dismissing the fact that saves are used to ascertain worthiness of induction to the HOF; they indeed are, as wrongheaded as that may be. I was dismissing saves as a measurement of value for determining which relievers are better than others. Jeremy touted Lee Smith as the best reliever of all time, and he pointed to Smith's saves as supporting that. In disagreeing, I pointed out that saves have no relevance to that specific discussion. What value saves have to HOF nominees is a different discussion.


Your lack of reading comprehension is really beginning to annoy me.

I have said Lee Smith is one of the greatest relievers of all time. One of....not the. That's quite a difference there. And his stats back that up. Saves, ERA, WHIP, All Star games, and Rolaids Relief Awards all back up the fact that he's one of the best to play that position.

Your whole argument was based around the idea that because Gossage wasn't a one inning reliever, he was more deserving than Smith. That was your whole argument. You ignored the fact that statistically speaking, they're basically equals.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:37 pm 
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Jeremy, Im not coming at you with this, Im just asking;

You said it was a "simple fact" that Smith has been kept out of the Hall for racial reasons. Have you read anything about this? Anything to back this up? If its just your opinion and you got carried away, thats fine. Im just curious if youd read anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:49 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Your whole argument was based around the idea that because Gossage wasn't a one inning reliever, he was more deserving than Smith. That was your whole argument. You ignored the fact that statistically speaking, they're basically equals.

No, my whole argument is based around the fact that Gossage has done more actual pitching than Smith. That is clearly shown by the difference between their career innings pitched, which is statistically significant.

It makes little sense to say that two pitchers are "basically equals" when one has pitched 500 more innings than the other. That logic could be extended to say that a starter and a reliever that have equal ERAs, regardless of the number of innings each has pitched, are "basically equals." You seem to be blind to the fact that the more innings a pitcher pitches, the more value he provides to his team.

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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Jeremy, Im not coming at you with this, Im just asking;

You said it was a "simple fact" that Smith has been kept out of the Hall for racial reasons. Have you read anything about this? Anything to back this up? If its just your opinion and you got carried away, thats fine. Im just curious if youd read anything.



First off, understand that we're talking about the Baseball Hall Of Fame. This is an entity that has a very sketchy history when it comes to racial relations. When the Hall started talking about including Negro League legends, they wanted to create a separate wing for them. That's just one example.

To me, it's clear that Smith is being held out because he's black. The stats are there.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:06 pm 
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More innings pitched?


That's really your argument? You're really going to go with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:28 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Jeremy, Im not coming at you with this, Im just asking;

You said it was a "simple fact" that Smith has been kept out of the Hall for racial reasons. Have you read anything about this? Anything to back this up? If its just your opinion and you got carried away, thats fine. Im just curious if youd read anything.



First off, understand that we're talking about the Baseball Hall Of Fame. This is an entity that has a very sketchy history when it comes to racial relations. When the Hall started talking about including Negro League legends, they wanted to create a separate wing for them. That's just one example.

To me, it's clear that Smith is being held out because he's black. The stats are there.


Seems to me that many great African American players have been inducted over the last several decades. To claim institutional bigotry, there has to be a level of consistency. Hall voters dont vote for guys from Clemente to Gwynn and then suddenly become racists when Lee Smith shows up. If theres a "bigotry" here, it seems to be aimed more at Relievers than African Americans. Was Gossage kept out til his 8th (or was it his 9th?) try because of racial reasons?

In stating "to me, its clear", lets be very clear that you are simply voicing an opinion. There no "simple fact" here.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Jeremy, Im not coming at you with this, Im just asking;

You said it was a "simple fact" that Smith has been kept out of the Hall for racial reasons. Have you read anything about this? Anything to back this up? If its just your opinion and you got carried away, thats fine. Im just curious if youd read anything.



First off, understand that we're talking about the Baseball Hall Of Fame. This is an entity that has a very sketchy history when it comes to racial relations. When the Hall started talking about including Negro League legends, they wanted to create a separate wing for them. That's just one example.

To me, it's clear that Smith is being held out because he's black. The stats are there.


Seems to me that many great African American players have been inducted over the last several decades. To claim institutional bigotry, there has to be a level of consistency. Hall voters dont vote for guys from Clemente to Gwynn and then suddenly become racists when Lee Smith shows up. If theres a "bigotry" here, it seems to be aimed more at Relievers than African Americans. Was Gossage kept out til his 8th (or was it his 9th?) try because of racial reasons?

In stating "to me, its clear", lets be very clear that you are simply voicing an opinion. There no "simple fact" here.



Gossage was kept out because he was overrated. He still is overrated for that matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:46 pm 
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Im not here to argue Gossage's relative merits, thats for you and Wilton. Im talking about Lee Smith and if hes a victim of racism. Now, earlier baseball eras certainly have blood on their hands when it comes to racism. Just not here.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:05 am 
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I think Lee Smith is a Hall of Famer...

Its not his fault the criteria of a closer changed over the years, but I believe Gossage is better overall than Smith

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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:06 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
More innings pitched?


That's really your argument? You're really going to go with that?

Your whole argument is based on saves. So yes, I'm going to go with that, and I think I'll win.

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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:15 am 
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Even the year the White Sox made Gossage a starter he was still the best pitcher on the team...led the team in K's by more than 40, 2nd best ERA of any of the starts, 15 complete games, led the team in innings...and made the All Star team

not bad for his only season as a starter

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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:54 pm 
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Henderson and Rice made it this year. Smith, Dawson, and Blyleven all fell short. Tommy John also fell short in his last year of eligibility.

Mo Vaughn somehow got 6 votes.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Didnt Jay Bell get a vote or two?

Also, McGwire down around 20%


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Can't wait until the Rockets eligible. Oh, wait, yes I can.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Didnt Jay Bell get a vote or two?

Also, McGwire down around 20%


Correct on both counts. Bell with 2 votes and McGwire with 21%.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:40 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Henderson and Rice made it this year. Smith, Dawson, and Blyleven all fell short. Tommy John also fell short in his last year of eligibility.

Mo Vaughn somehow got 6 votes.

The BBWA is a f***ing joke. Henderson obviously deserves induction, but Rice is the epitome of undeserving. He owes his induction to Fenway Park and the Boston media. Meanwhile, the travesty against Blyleven continues. Why one of the best pitchers of all time is still not in the HOF while guys like Catfish Hunter have their likenesses memorialized in Cooperstown is an absolute tragedy.

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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:51 pm 
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I like Blyleven too but in reality he is just over a .500 pitcher.


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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:51 pm 
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It is truly amazing how experienced writers, GM's, managers, players, and others who disagree with how you do things, are so often a
Quote:
f***ing joke
.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:58 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I like Blyleven too but in reality he is just over a .500 pitcher.

So was Phil Niekro. What's your point?

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 Post subject: Re: Hall of Fame
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:09 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
It is truly amazing how experienced writers, GM's, managers, players, and others who disagree with how you do things, are so often a
Quote:
f***ing joke
.

ZM


I suppose, ZM, that you can provide a rational argument for why a system that includes ANY votes for Mo Vaughn isn't a joke.

While I am not going to argue individual merits between Willton vs. the BBWA, I don't know how anyone can't consider HOF voting to not be a joke, only slightly better than fans' all-star voting.

Just because you write about baseball in no way qualifies you to judge what a good baseball player is.

Cue BH's story about how he voted for some guy's HOF ballot every year in 3...2...1...


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