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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:45 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I wouldn't say that he was "dominant" in any of his starts.


I would.

6/21 @ LAA - 4 hits through 6.1 IP and 5 Ks against a great line-up.

His second to last start against Oakland as well. 5 hits through 7 IP. Only mistake was the Moss HR.

The most important thing to me is that his command has been basically excellent up to this point and that was a huge reason for why his promotion was considered premature coming out of AAA.


Plus his debut.

The fact that he wasn't really MLB-ready from an overall standpoint, got pulled up in a pinch, and hasn't been overwhelmed much at all should speak to how good he's been. Maybe not "dominant", but he's been very good under the circumstances. He can BE dominating at times, his stuff is definitely that of a dominant shutdown power arm. It's a work in progress, I can't see a guy with that kind of stuff NOT turning into a serious Cy Young contender of the course of the next 5 years, barring any type of serious injuries.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:53 pm 
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He was not dominant in his debut. The Giants hit the ball well, but either right at people or stranded runners.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:03 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
He was not dominant in his debut. The Giants hit the ball well, but either right at people or stranded runners.


Eh, I wouldn't really describe it that way. I agree it wasn't a "dominant" start but there were flashes. He did retire 13 in a row after settling down (where you could of course site nerves, etc. if you wanted to) and I don't recall many of them being well hit. I also seem to recall one of the hits given up in the first an infield single. He might have ran out of gas in the 7th. If one or two bounces went his away on balls hit in the infield the statline would look pretty impressive for a rookie debut.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:25 pm 
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I guess I just don't think that, outside of a few walks, he was really that much better in most of his "good" starts (ones where the Bucs scored some actual runs and he won) than he was in his "bad" starts (ie ones he lost).

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:28 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I guess I just don't think that, outside of a few walks, he was really that much better in most of his "good" starts (ones where the Bucs scored some actual runs and he won) than he was in his "bad" starts (ie ones he lost).


I'd agree with this. From his first start until now I definitely don't think he's quite as good as his stuff indicates he should be.

He can (and hopefully will) get there, he just isn't there yet. Just have to hope Morton keeps duplicating his 2011 numbers and you really do have a very solid 5 man rotation, and then an excellent 5 man rotation if Wandy is able to make it back.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:38 pm 
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I think JC is on to something with the two-strike hits thing. I've noticed the same when I've watched Cole. It's like he just can't put them away when he has the chance.

I'm hoping he'll get there to, but, that's pretty much the reason why when some of my Buccos friends down here asked yesterday after softball if I'd trade Cole straight-up for Stanton, I didn't even hesitate to say yes. They were much more leery of such a deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:44 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I think JC is on to something with the two-strike hits thing. I've noticed the same when I've watched Cole. It's like he just can't put them away when he has the chance.

I'm hoping he'll get there to, but, that's pretty much the reason why when some of my Buccos friends down here asked yesterday after softball if I'd trade Cole straight-up for Stanton, I didn't even hesitate to say yes. They were much more leery of such a deal.

What was your point of view, just 7 starts ago? Would you have said no to such a 1 for 1 trade whilst he was still in the minors? I would have said yes then, and I'd say yes now, not because of anything we might have learned in the past 7 starts, but just because he's still unproven and Stanton isn't.

He's a rookie? Don't people get a chance to work it out?


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:49 pm 
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val wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I think JC is on to something with the two-strike hits thing. I've noticed the same when I've watched Cole. It's like he just can't put them away when he has the chance.

I'm hoping he'll get there to, but, that's pretty much the reason why when some of my Buccos friends down here asked yesterday after softball if I'd trade Cole straight-up for Stanton, I didn't even hesitate to say yes. They were much more leery of such a deal.

What was your point of view, just 7 starts ago? Would you have said no to such a 1 for 1 trade whilst he was still in the minors? I would have said yes then, and I'd say yes now, not because of anything we might have learned in the past 7 starts, but just because he's still unproven and Stanton isn't.

He's a rookie? Don't people get a chance to work it out?



Yes, I would have said yes to that trade in the minors. It's the whole farm for Stanton trades that I was saying no to. The "Cole has great stuff but can't put hitters away" question is not a new one by any stretch.

He gets a chance to work it out, yes...he's not getting demoted.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:32 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
If I'm Hurdle, I make sure that Martin is behind the plate for each and every one of Cole's starts. If that means that McKenry starts on a Saturday, so be it.


This. Also, I love seeing Cole and Locke park themselves next to AJ during games. It looks like AJ really enjoys mentoring those guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:02 am 
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TheShark wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I wouldn't say that he was "dominant" in any of his starts.


I would.

6/21 @ LAA - 4 hits through 6.1 IP and 5 Ks against a great line-up.

His second to last start against Oakland as well. 5 hits through 7 IP. Only mistake was the Moss HR.


7/23 @ Washington.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:12 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
The "Cole has great stuff but can't put hitters away" question is not a new one by any stretch.

Current starting pitchers in MLB age 22 and below:

Jacob Turner
Jose Fernandez
Shelby Miller
Julio Teheran
Gerrit Cole
Jordan Lyles

That is a group of huge talent, high-ceiling, elite young arms.

Cole is one of six. SIX.

And of those, only Fernandez and Miller strike me as guys who might be better, and Miller benefited from pitching in the majors last season.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:27 am 
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It's likely teams have figured him out somewhat. He still has the opportunity to fine tune himself as well. He's responding just fine. If all else fails, he's our best RH pinch hitter off the bench! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:36 am 
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Sometimes I think we wait too long for young guys. Other teams bring up young guys much more often and many times are successful. All of them need more seasoning but some can get it on the run. He's a stud and will become a better pitcher as time and experience continues. They tend to learn more and quicker when the are at the highest level of competition. We're world series ready yet so why not?????

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Sometimes I think we wait too long for young guys. Other teams bring up young guys much more often and many times are successful.


This really is just not true and I think it's pretty clear that those who say it are just impatient, or it is just a product of living in a baseball era where a few dime a dozen mega-prospects have recently been graduated with Harper, Trout, Strasberg, etc. and thinking a prospect needs to be promoted to the next level every time they go on a hot streak. The notion that the Pirates are too patient to develop prospects just doesn't hold any weight and dismisses a golden rule which is that the minors exist for a reason. This is a discussion about Cole ... he spent less than two years in the minors, beginning in high-A last year and pitching in three levels in the same season. At age 21, Gregory Polanco was surprisingly promoted to AA which sets his ETA to late next year at the latest. Take a look back at the previous top prospects in the system and you could actually make the argument that Alvarez and Tabata were rushed to get called up in 2010 to complete the "core" with McCutchen and Walker already playing well. Tim Williams who covers the entire farm system for a living wrote an article when this question came up a couple of months ago and concluded that the Pirates are actually more aggressive when it comes to the lower levels i.e. consistently sending prep pitchers to low-A, promoting players who miss a chunk of time due to injury to the next level the following season anyway and so fourth. The conclusion was that that strategy levels out when they tend to treat the obviously more important upper levels at a normal pace.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:24 pm 
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The other thing to keep in mind is that the Pirates can really only count on having a stud player stay for 6 years (though we hope they sign for longer).

I'd rather not waste the first year of that time while the player learns on the run. I want his 6 best years.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:53 pm 
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BBF wrote:
The other thing to keep in mind is that the Pirates can really only count on having a stud player stay for 6 years (though we hope they sign for longer).

I'd rather not waste the first year of that time while the player learns on the run. I want his 6 best years.


If Cole was sent down and brought back in September the bucs would have 6 full years of control as opposed to if he's not sent back?


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:15 pm 
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buccosfan77 wrote:
BBF wrote:
The other thing to keep in mind is that the Pirates can really only count on having a stud player stay for 6 years (though we hope they sign for longer).

I'd rather not waste the first year of that time while the player learns on the run. I want his 6 best years.


If Cole was sent down and brought back in September the bucs would have 6 full years of control as opposed to if he's not sent back?

Pirates have 6 full years of control after this season regardless. It's just that 4 of them are likely to be arbitration years because of super 2. If they were to send him down for a few weeks, only 3 would be arbitration years.


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