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 Post subject: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:19 am 
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Is it possible that other teams have already figured out Gerrit Cole.

He hasn't looked or pitched as he did during his first start where it looked so dominant.

Three straight losses and seems to have lost the strike zone.

Where's the 100 mph fastball that was blowing guys away?


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:54 am 
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Chris76 wrote:
Is it possible that other teams have already figured out Gerrit Cole.

He hasn't looked or pitched as he did during his first start where it looked so dominant.

Three straight losses and seems to have lost the strike zone.

Where's the 100 mph fastball that was blowing guys away?


1. 22 years old.
2. His 100 mph fastball is strait as an arrow.
3. His changeup and slider are not ready for the big time yet.
4. Bottom line is he was called up before he was ready due to injuries to other pitchers, he needed more time at AAA.

HOWEVER, that being said, he has still pitched very well. His 3 losses he has given:

3 runs
2 runs
3 runs

A total of 5 walks and 14 strikeouts. Too me that isn't a loss of command, that is just what happens when you only have 1 pitch.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:58 am 
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For the sake of argument, Justin Verlander did not have his first dominant year until he was 26, he was in the league for 5 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:02 am 
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If Cole can command one of his breaking pitches better in the second half, he has a chance to be excellent this year. In fact, yesterday, the three Mets' hitters who singled in the first inning were all in two-strike counts. All he needed was an "out pitch," and he would have likely escaped that first inning unscathed.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:14 am 
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I'm still incredibly optimistic about him and think this is still an awesome staff for the rest of the year with him as a 5 man. He's a rookie, he'll figure it out before long.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:38 am 
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Stronger hitting lineups are already sitting on that fastball as the Phillies showed in the 6th inning of that game.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:26 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
For the sake of argument, Justin Verlander did not have his first dominant year until he was 26, he was in the league for 5 years.




I guess it depends on how you define "dominant" - but Verlander was really good his first two seasons in the majors, especially considering his age:

Age 23: 17-9; 3.63 ERA; 125 ERA+; 6.0 K per 9
Age 24: 18-6; 3.66 ERA; 125 ERA+; 8.2 K per 9


As for Cole, I'd like to see him back in the minors for awhile. Save some innings and work on some stuff. He has pitched OK - but not better than what they were getting from Gomez. In fact, not as good as Gomez. I realize that Jeanmar's peripherals suggest he will come back to earth, but I'd give him a few starts and see if he continues to pitch as well as his earlier starts. Maybe he can have a Karstens-like season.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:32 pm 
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Corsair wrote:
Stronger hitting lineups are already sitting on that fastball as the Phillies showed in the 6th inning of that game.



I think it also shows in his mediocre 5.4 K's per 9 innings. And at Indianapolis, it was only 6.2. With his stuff, it should be significantly better - but not if teams don't worry about anything other than the fastball.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Ken wrote:
Corsair wrote:
Stronger hitting lineups are already sitting on that fastball as the Phillies showed in the 6th inning of that game.



I think it also shows in his mediocre 5.4 K's per 9 innings. And at Indianapolis, it was only 6.2. With his stuff, it should be significantly better - but not if teams don't worry about anything other than the fastball.


Hence the need for an "out pitch," as I write above.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:43 pm 
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Ken wrote:
Corsair wrote:
Stronger hitting lineups are already sitting on that fastball as the Phillies showed in the 6th inning of that game.



I think it also shows in his mediocre 5.4 K's per 9 innings. And at Indianapolis, it was only 6.2. With his stuff, it should be significantly better - but not if teams don't worry about anything other than the fastball.


Because he doesn't "try" for K's. He pitches to contact to conserve his pitch count. Just like the staff wants him to do, as they do all their pitchers. What he needs to do I think, is realize when he is in a "K" situation and then bring the killer pitch.

He'll get there. He has to learn. I think it will be the slider that gets there first.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:53 pm 
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I wouldn't say that he was "dominant" in any of his starts.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:54 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If Cole can command one of his breaking pitches better in the second half, he has a chance to be excellent this year. In fact, yesterday, the three Mets' hitters who singled in the first inning were all in two-strike counts. All he needed was an "out pitch," and he would have likely escaped that first inning unscathed.



I think you can say the same thing about a lot of his games (what with the 2 strike hits).

I hope that slider and changeup can get to that level.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Nothing to be concerned about long-term. This season? As said, he was pulled up in a pinch because of injuries, and all things considered, he's pitched well. For coming up without really developed his change or slider to the MLB level, and just throwing fastballs, it speaks to how good his stuff is that he's been this successful so far. Not just that either, it's been a nice morale boost for the fanbase to see someone so promising get called up.

Kind of weird to see a guy who throws so hard so effortlessly pitch to contact the way he has. I totally agree that once he develops that "out pitch" he's going to be a seriously dominating pitcher. It's all he's really missing. When it comes to control and stuff, he's definitely MLB-ready. He just needs more polish.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:45 pm 
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First year, 22 year old with a 3.89 ERA and you're concerned? Tough crowd.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:56 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
First year, 22 year old with a 3.89 ERA and you're concerned? Tough crowd.


I know, and he is doing it with basically 1 pitch.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Leway512 wrote:
This season? As said, he was pulled up in a pinch because of injuries


This part seems to be forgotten by just about everything I see written about Cole.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:34 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I wouldn't say that he was "dominant" in any of his starts.


I would.

6/21 @ LAA - 4 hits through 6.1 IP and 5 Ks against a great line-up.

His second to last start against Oakland as well. 5 hits through 7 IP. Only mistake was the Moss HR.

The most important thing to me is that his command has been basically excellent up to this point and that was a huge reason for why his promotion was considered premature coming out of AAA.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:37 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I wouldn't say that he was "dominant" in any of his starts.


I would.

6/21 @ LAA - 4 hits through 6.1 IP and 5 Ks against a great line-up.

His second to last start against Oakland as well. 5 hits through 7 IP. Only mistake was the Moss HR.

The most important thing to me is that his command has been basically excellent up to this point and that was a huge reason for why his promotion was considered premature coming out of AAA.

I agree. He's done everything you'd want for a rookie. I wouldn't have any problem sending him back to AAA ball for a spell to work on his breaking stuff, but he's been real positive. And his success at the plate is just an added bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Don't agree with all of that. He has always had command of his fastball, as shown by his MiLB walk rate. His command of secondary pitches was an issue, as was his ability to contain a bad inning and not lose focus. He has been as advertised, mostly, to me. Limited command on secondary pitches. Sometimes, but not always, letting an inning get away. He has shown an ability to keep his composure in the face of a tough inning and recover - a nice find for me since I don't feel the need to bring garlic to ward off the demons.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Concerned about Gerrit Cole
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:03 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Ken wrote:
Corsair wrote:
Stronger hitting lineups are already sitting on that fastball as the Phillies showed in the 6th inning of that game.



I think it also shows in his mediocre 5.4 K's per 9 innings. And at Indianapolis, it was only 6.2. With his stuff, it should be significantly better - but not if teams don't worry about anything other than the fastball.


Because he doesn't "try" for K's. He pitches to contact to conserve his pitch count. Just like the staff wants him to do, as they do all their pitchers. What he needs to do I think, is realize when he is in a "K" situation and then bring the killer pitch.

He'll get there. He has to learn. I think it will be the slider that gets there first.

ZM


If I'm Hurdle, I make sure that Martin is behind the plate for each and every one of Cole's starts. If that means that McKenry starts on a Saturday, so be it.

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