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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:49 pm 
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It's good to know when your pitcher has a rough start, your offense can help him out. The pitching had been carrying the pirates a lot of the season,good to see them return the favor.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Clevelandsux wrote:
It's good to know when your pitcher has a rough start, your offense can help him out. The pitching had been carrying the pirates a lot of the season,good to see them return the favor.


Yessir. And hey, what about Ryan Reid? Barely used, had a rough outing against Atlanta (I think), and then he comes in tonight and has a very strong showing.

The Bucs have arms.

I'm not QUITE as in favor of dealing Grilli as I was Hanrahan in 2011....but if a team is willing to overpay drastically, I'd listen given how deep this bullpen is.

Cutch being Cutch on that one. Beautiful swing, beautiful trajectory, conquered the North Side Notch.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:57 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
I'm not QUITE as in favor of dealing Grilli


Seriously????????????????Trade your closer when you are in first place and setting up for a run???? I can only hope that this statement was in jest... :roll: :roll: :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:00 pm 
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What great ball the bucs are playing. Keep losing Reds.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
I'm not QUITE as in favor of dealing Grilli


Seriously????????????????Trade your closer when you are in first place and setting up for a run???? I can only hope that this statement was in jest... :roll: :roll: :roll:


I don't think there's any extra value in a closer. Melancon is very, very good and I think he'd be a suitable replacement.

I'd keep Grilli because he's a very good bullpen arm. Not because of his ability to close.

But, if a team is willing to give me more than his statistics say he's worth, I'm taking it and running. Biggest mistake this regime made, IMO, was caving and not trading Hanrahan for Chris Davis back in 2011.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Who said Mercer doesn't have range?


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Raise it up! What a night.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Offense returns the favor. Big comeback for this team.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Raise it! 19 games up. In a league of their own.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:11 pm 
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Watched the game at a bar in Omaha and made friends with a few patrons. Needless to say, there are a few more Pirates fans in the city of Omaha! Great game, great win tonight for our beloved Buccos! I can't stop smiling!

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:39 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
I'm not QUITE as in favor of dealing Grilli


Seriously????????????????Trade your closer when you are in first place and setting up for a run???? I can only hope that this statement was in jest... :roll: :roll: :roll:


I don't think there's any extra value in a closer. Melancon is very, very good and I think he'd be a suitable replacement.

I'd keep Grilli because he's a very good bullpen arm. Not because of his ability to close.

But, if a team is willing to give me more than his statistics say he's worth, I'm taking it and running. Biggest mistake this regime made, IMO, was caving and not trading Hanrahan for Chris Davis back in 2011.

This team is making a serious run at things this season and you want to trade a huge part of the heart and soul of this team. So ridiculous. Take off your saber metric glasses for a second every now and then...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:44 pm 
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So getting out the 6-7-8 hitters in the 9th is a tougher task than getting the 3-4-5 guys in the 8th? Melancon was rated the best reliever in baseball about a month ago due to his performance in clutch situations relative to Grilli....there isn't some intrinsic closer value.

Like I said, I like Grilli because he's a great bullpen arm. But if a team is going to overpay, I'm listening because the difference between a 3.00 ERA bullpen guy and a 4.00 ERA bullpen guy is 1 run every 9 appearances. I'm fine with that if I get a huge return.

Have complete faith in the rest of the bullpen to pick up the slack. I think Hawk Harrelson is hysterical to listen to, but I have absolutely no belief that #TWTW exists.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:51 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
I'm not QUITE as in favor of dealing Grilli


Seriously????????????????Trade your closer when you are in first place and setting up for a run???? I can only hope that this statement was in jest... :roll: :roll: :roll:


I don't think there's any extra value in a closer. Melancon is very, very good and I think he'd be a suitable replacement.

I'd keep Grilli because he's a very good bullpen arm. Not because of his ability to close.

But, if a team is willing to give me more than his statistics say he's worth, I'm taking it and running. Biggest mistake this regime made, IMO, was caving and not trading Hanrahan for Chris Davis back in 2011.

Have you been drinking???????????? He leads the league in saves and you're ready to trade him??????????? Even if others might do as well (which I doubt), our depth of quality relievers would be seriously diminished.
Use some ice and mix to slow down.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Again, Melancon has better numbers in more difficult situations and the value of a reliever is very very small over the course of a year.

If a team is willing to trade me an extremely viable every day player for a reliever, I'm doing it.

Grilli is gone after next year anyway....a guy who helps me through 2016+ does me a lot more good.

To reiterate, Grilli is an outstanding bullpen arm so I wouldn't trade him for anything. But if I can exploit an old school GM who thinks saves/wins are an important indicator of a pitcher, I'm doing it.

Especially if I have Welker, Black, Cordier waiting in the wings.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:59 pm 
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The Pirates are NOT trading Grilli, or Melancon, or Wilson, or Watson, or Morris, or Welker, or Black.

Neil put together this pitching staff because he KNOWS how valuable those guys are, and how difficult they are to find. Just because Neil is good at it does NOT make it easy.

Ask the effing Tigers, who tried to re-instate Jose Valverde. Joel Hanrahan rolling the ball to the plate with his left hand was a better choice.

The Buccos have a boatload of power arms. Other teams need power arms.

@#$* 'em. Let them roll out garbage in long relief, or when down by a run. Kiss my ass, other teams.

Oh, and watch one guy after the other roll onto the bump for the Pirates and deal at 98 mph.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:01 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
The Pirates are NOT trading Grilli, or Melancon, or Wilson, or Watson, or Morris, or Welker, or Black.

Neil put together this pitching staff because he KNOWS how valuable those guys are, and how difficult they are to find. Just because Neil is good at it does NOT make it easy.

Ask the effing Tigers, who tried to re-instate Jose Valverde. Joel Hanrahan rolling the ball to the plate with his left hand was a better choice.

The Buccos have a boatload of power arms. Other teams need power arms.

@#$* 'em. Let them roll out garbage in long relief, or when down by a run. Kiss my ass, other teams.

Oh, and watch one guy after the other roll onto the bump for the Pirates and deal at 98 mph.



This is a very good post, BUT hypothetically, let's say the Tigers offer you Nick Castellanos for Jason Grilli.

Castellanos was rated the #21 prospect this season in all of baseball and is a 21 year old 3B/RF prospect in AAA who's sporting an .851 OPS.

Knowing that you have all of those power arms you just mentioned, do you make that deal?

That's what I'm talking about. If a team knocks my socks off by giving me more than Grilli is worth, I have to do it.

I'm not saying dump him, I'm saying this team has such outstanding depth that a team might come to you with another Hanrahan-Davis type of deal and you could make it with minimal dropoff in production.

They made a mistake holding Hanrahan as long as they did because of the potential backlash....if the right opportunity comes up I would hope they wouldn't do it again.

It's a win-win. Either you keep Grilli and the bullpen keeps rolling, or you trade Grilli for a great prospect, replace him with Melancon, and have another guy who pumps 98 MPH fastballs in the zone coming up to PNC.

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Last edited by StarlingArcher on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:04 am 
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5-0 A's, bottom 3rd.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:06 am 
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Rangers officially finished off the Reds as well. Big for the Pirates. Getting a huge gap between 1st and 2nd wildcard would be a really nice way to enter the 2nd half. Minimize the perceived pressure.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:07 am 
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A mere bullpen arm should always be expendable for the right return so I'm with SA there, nothing he's saying is really too extreme at all. Saying that saves are pointless as is the way it permeates bullpen configuration and the way it influences the decision-making of modern managers isn't a radical view nor is it just Saber-heads who hold that belief. I'm pretty sure at least half of my very casual baseball-viewing friends recognize that pitching an inning is pitching an inning, and that's ultimately all it is. As SA said, that doesn't mean that said pitcher in that role cannot be very good and effective despite the mystical stat.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates 48-30 vs brewers 32-45
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:13 am 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
I'm not saying dump him, I'm saying this team has such outstanding depth that a team might come to you with another Hanrahan-Davis type of deal and you could make it with minimal dropoff in production.

How many times over the past 35 years, since Goose Gossage established the "closer" position, has a legitimate top-end playoff contender dealt its very productive, very solid, very good closer, who has 1 1/2 years left on his deal?

And if the Pirates make such a deal, and these guys look over to the spot where Grilli used to be and see him gone, and if Melancon then struggles a bit like he did last year with the Sox in the closer's role ...

I will not continue, Archer. For a variety of reasons - team chemistry, showing faith in these guys, excellent production, optimization of roles - Huntington will not deal Grilli. He won't.

And my faith in Neil has been pretty consistent. This board will show that. I have confidence that Neil would not kick this franchise in the groin by dealing a successful, popular, affordable guy like Grilli.


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