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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:40 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Well sure, but they aren't getting more than Mel Rojas Jr., Andy Oliver, and (if the Sox eat some of the contract) Wyatt Mathisen for them.

We don't need to make moves to help for this year and next year....especially not with aging players and bad contracts.


You're right, let's just assume the Pirates are going to be relevant in 2015. Let's just assume there won't be injuries to Cutch, Pedro, Marte, Cole, or that the minor league guys all succeed in the bigs.


Are we also assuming that those injuries will prevent them from performing in 2016, 2017, and 2018?

People have complained for years about this team being mismanaged and then as soon as they get close we want to go ahead and continue mismanaging it with bad trades and terrible contracts.

I'm not even saying don't trade Polanco. I was/am in favor of including him in a trade for Giancarlo Stanton. I'm saying don't trade Polanco for Alex f8cking Rios and a washed up Alexei Ramirez. He's worth more than they are and could fetch far better.

It was a stupid trade proposal by Bowden because the dollar values of the players involved don't match up....they could make a trade work for those players for significantly less.....such as Rojas, Oliver, and Mathisen.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:53 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
It was a stupid trade proposal by Bowden because the dollar values of the players involved don't match up....they could make a trade work for those players for significantly less.....such as Rojas, Oliver, and Mathisen.


Why would the dollar values need to match up? And why would the White Sox want Rojas and Oliver?

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:58 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
And why would the White Sox want Rojas and Oliver?


They wouldn't, that's the point. He was saying what the Pirates would realistically give up for them as opposed to the "sell the farm" hypothetical Bowden proposal of giving up their best hitting prospect and second or third best pitching prospect.


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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:05 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
They wouldn't, that's the point. He was saying what the Pirates would realistically give up for them as opposed to the "sell the farm" hypothetical Bowden proposal of giving up their best hitting prospect and second or third best pitching prospect.


I understand. I just don't want to read any posts complaining about how terrible the offense is and how the Pirates need to upgrade...as long as they don't get rid of Top 20 players in the farm system. Anything short of Casey Sadler and Jarek Cunningham for Giancarlo Stanton is a terrible trade, mortgaging the future. Sigh.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:08 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
It was a stupid trade proposal by Bowden because the dollar values of the players involved don't match up....they could make a trade work for those players for significantly less.....such as Rojas, Oliver, and Mathisen.


Why would the dollar values need to match up? And why would the White Sox want Rojas and Oliver?


To clear the contracts off their books.

Basically, the way that front offices will break down trades initially is excess value on contracts. 1 WAR is worth ~3.3M, so bad contracts to players gives them a negative value because you're actually paying more than his on-field performance dictates.

A top 11-25 hitter, which Polanco is after Keith Law and Baseball America (the only two sites to update) put him in theirs, is worth 33.36M. That's without adding in the other prospects, the Pirates would need to gain 33.36M in excess value in order for the trade to be even. If you add Kingham that number creeps up closer to 42M.

Rios is due 12.5M a year and isn't performing it. So he actually would require the White Sox to eat a chunk of the contract in order to get back anything of value....similar to what the Astros did with Wandy and the Yankees did with AJ. Add in the fact that Rios is only signed for this year and next, and he'd need to provide absolutely insane value to come close to matching Polanco's value.

Ramirez is due 8.125M a year and, again, isn't performing it. He's a guy they'd need to eat money on, or just take back a C prospect on.

Given that both guys are slightly underperforming their contracts, the Sox would probably wind up with two decent C level prospects and you could toss in a B level guy if they're willing to eat some of the money.

It's similar to the NBA teams who trade expiring contracts for a D-Leaguer, we'd be giving the Sox payroll relief and roster flexibility as they enter their rebuilding stage so there's no reason to give up something that other teams would deem valuable in order to plug in a couple of holes temporarily.

You could get far better upgrades for Polanco and Kingham, they'd have a ton of value on the market. The fact that Bowden mentioned that the Sox would be getting cap relief and then proceeded to propose this trade is just perfect ESPN. Drives chatter but not much substance behind it.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:10 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
TheShark wrote:
They wouldn't, that's the point. He was saying what the Pirates would realistically give up for them as opposed to the "sell the farm" hypothetical Bowden proposal of giving up their best hitting prospect and second or third best pitching prospect.


I understand. I just don't want to read any posts complaining about how terrible the offense is and how the Pirates need to upgrade...as long as they don't get rid of Top 20 players in the farm system. Anything short of Casey Sadler and Jarek Cunningham for Giancarlo Stanton is a terrible trade, mortgaging the future. Sigh.


You won't hear that from me. Have said all along the offense isn't as bad as it's made out to be and that the biggest improvements we'll see would occur from guys already on the team.

And I also was all about trading Taillon, Polanco, Sanchez, and a C grade lefty for Stanton so I have no problem trading prospects. They'd just need to be for somebody of similar value.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:13 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
I understand. I just don't want to read any posts complaining about how terrible the offense is and how the Pirates need to upgrade...as long as they don't get rid of Top 20 players in the farm system. Anything short of Casey Sadler and Jarek Cunningham for Giancarlo Stanton is a terrible trade, mortgaging the future. Sigh.


No one is making those kinds of comments regarding Stanton, just players like these ones Bowden threw out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Taking the contracts out of the equation...player to player...2013 and 2014 seasons in question...give me Rios and Ramirez over those three guys. They aren't just minor upgrades, they are major upgrades.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:17 pm 
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They had quite a discussion on the White Sox on MLB Network last night and the main thrust of it was why the GM would say last week that everyone but Konerko was available. They spoke of how damaging that can be to a teams psyche and the effects thereof. I really don't see the Pirates making any quick moves. They have put Tabata in rightfield with the promise of consistent playing time. I think the team is seeing if he can sustain offensive production as thus far he has been an upgrade. We just are in the middle of a short stretch where we cannot get a clutch hit to save our lives. Hopefully that will change. I do not have good feelings about Rios. The more of his salary, which is huge, that the team is willing to pick up, the less we will have to give in return. I don't like the thought of giving up an A or B prospect for a very iffy player. I am also not a fan of Alexei Ramirez. To give up our only real SS who is young is not something I would be in favor of either. I guess the bottom line is that I feel we have some young talent in the minors that is not that far away and that our long term needs supercede our short term ones. We just need some of our present players to step it up a notch and get over this rough stretch. A stretch like this was bound to happen. The sad part and on the flip side of that is that the pitching has stayed strong and that is what will get you through slumps in the long run......JMHO..... 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:21 pm 
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My opinions are for trades in general, not just the Rios/Ramirez one that was thrown out there. A major trade should be uncomfortable for both sides, it's a risk. I want the Pirates to win this season. I obviously want the Pirates to be smart about it but I want them to take a calculated risk.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Player A: 3% BB rate, 12% K rate .281/.308/.339, .287 wOBA, 73 WRC+

Player B: 8.5% BB rate, 15% K rate, .302/.368/.453, .359 wOBA, 132 WRC+

Player C: 7% BB rate, 16% K rate, .261/.318/.401, .309 wOBA, 98 WRC+

Player D: 7% BB rate, 17% K rate, .281/.333/.448, .338 wOBA, 108 WRC+

Without giving you contracts, age, or control, which 2 you taking? Players B and D are OF and Players A and C are SS.

I can give defense, but since offense is the concern I left it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I do not have good feelings about Rios. The more of his salary, which is huge, that the team is willing to pick up, the less we will have to give in return. I don't like the thought of giving up an A or B prospect for a very iffy player. I am also not a fan of Alexei Ramirez. To give up our only real SS who is young is not something I would be in favor of either.


Completely agree about the salary.

I've watched a ton of White Sox games, both in person and on TV, this past year. The talent difference Rios and Ramirez have at their respective positions in contrast to what the Pirates are running out on a daily basis is absurd.

I guess the reason a trade like this tickles my sweet spot (is that even a phrase?!?) more than most is because it fills the need of two gaping holes the Pirates need filled. To get that taken care of with one deal is pretty impressive (if it can be done, I don't know if the White Sox would do it).

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Hope for Colorado to become sellers and make a run at Cuddyer. Don't think it will happen, but that's a guy I'd like to see here. Finish this season plus he is under contract for next season. At that point Polanco is ready to come up. On top of his excellent play this year, I just read an article stating he is great in the clubhouse...something the Pirates have stated they like about their own guys now.


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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:39 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
I've watched a ton of White Sox games, both in person and on TV, this past year. The talent difference Rios and Ramirez have at their respective positions in contrast to what the Pirates are running out on a daily basis is absurd.


I respectfully submit this:

Player A: 3% BB rate, 12% K rate .281/.308/.339, .287 wOBA, 73 WRC+

Player B: 8.5% BB rate, 15% K rate, .302/.368/.453, .359 wOBA, 132 WRC+

Player C: 7% BB rate, 16% K rate, .261/.318/.401, .309 wOBA, 98 WRC+

Player D: 7% BB rate, 17% K rate, .281/.333/.448, .338 wOBA, 108 WRC+

Players A and C are SS and players B and D are OF.

Now, there's not a whole lot of discrepancy either way, but that also illustrates the fact that this offense isn't going to improve regardless of Ramirez and/or Rios because the Pirates are getting similar production/value and still in a perceived rut (although I think Chicago's park is far more hitter friendly than PNC which is admittedly not saying a lot).

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:31 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Well sure, but they aren't getting more than Mel Rojas Jr., Andy Oliver, and (if the Sox eat some of the contract) Wyatt Mathisen for them.

We don't need to make moves to help for this year and next year....especially not with aging players and bad contracts.


You're right, let's just assume the Pirates are going to be relevant in 2015. Let's just assume there won't be injuries to Cutch, Pedro, Marte, Cole, or that the minor league guys all succeed in the bigs.

Why not? You're assuming that there won't be injuries to Cutch, Pedro, Marte and Cole this year.

Jose Tabata has a better OPS than Rios right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:36 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
My opinions are for trades in general, not just the Rios/Ramirez one that was thrown out there. A major trade should be uncomfortable for both sides, it's a risk. I want the Pirates to win this season. I obviously want the Pirates to be smart about it but I want them to take a calculated risk.

You do not take risks when trading top notch prospects like Polanco. If you give him up, you need to get certainty in return. You need to be certain that the trade will put you at least in the World Series.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:06 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Jose Tabata has a better OPS than Rios right now.


Mercer better than Ramirez at the dish too. Don't love the defense but if we're panicking about the offense then Mercer being better offensively is all that matters.

Only fix is a righty power bat, IMO. And not in a "he's hit 30 homers in a season way". In a "he hits home runs that won't get eaten by PNC" way. The home run discrepancy that all the teams have at PNC compared to other parks is staggering.

Pirates are built very well for it but it's not like they're the only team who uses rangy OF in center and left (Phils and A's). Cespedes has played LF about as well as I've seen anybody not named Starling Marte play it.

Edit: Killing time while watching ESPN....I wonder what the Angels would want for Trumbo. Their pitching is brutal and we have pitching to spare.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:45 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Jose Tabata has a better OPS than Rios right now.


Mercer better than Ramirez at the dish too. Don't love the defense but if we're panicking about the offense then Mercer being better offensively is all that matters.

Only fix is a righty power bat, IMO. And not in a "he's hit 30 homers in a season way". In a "he hits home runs that won't get eaten by PNC" way. The home run discrepancy that all the teams have at PNC compared to other parks is staggering.

Pirates are built very well for it but it's not like they're the only team who uses rangy OF in center and left (Phils and A's). Cespedes has played LF about as well as I've seen anybody not named Starling Marte play it.

Edit: Killing time while watching ESPN....I wonder what the Angels would want for Trumbo. Their pitching is brutal and we have pitching to spare.


Mercer having a better OPS is not all that matters. Mercer having a 50 point better slugging percentage has very little affect on this offense. Ramirez has a better batting average and the OBP is about the same. If you are a team that is going to win games 2-1, 3-2; in other words low scoring games then the defense is unmeasurably more important than a slight increase in slugging from the bottom of the order. Now I haven't done too much research into how much better Alexei's defense is compared to Jordy's.

As far as fixing this offense, a right handed power bat would help but it would not fix the offense. You would still have to count on that right handed bat coming up at the right times with people in scoring position. Last night we had a runner on 1st with no one out and down by 1 with our Andrew and Pedro coming up to bat, which was the ideal scenario and nothing happened.

To fix this offense we need more hitters getting on base more often and we need clutch, timely hitting. It doesn't have to be a HR. Singles when we have runners on 2nd and 3rd would suit me just fine. Give me a high average/OBP guy that comes through in the clutch with a base hit over most of these major league power hitters/strike out kings any day of the week.


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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:20 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Edit: Killing time while watching ESPN....I wonder what the Angels would want for Trumbo. Their pitching is brutal and we have pitching to spare.


Interesting thought. His performance against lefties and righties is very consistent. He does strike out a ton though and doesn't walk much. His stats make me think Pedro, which isn't a bad thing but it continues the trend of relying on HR for offense.

With that said, having him at 1B would open a spot for another BP arm (assuming one of Sanchez and Jones goes. I'd prefer Jones to go) which could be crucial going down the stretch.


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 Post subject: Re: Making the team better... the trade deadline thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Yeah I don't know what they'll do. We bat .250 with men on base if you eliminate the pitching spot so it's not like we're that anemic or that it's even possible to acquire "clutch" or "TWTW" (much to Hawk Harrelson's chagrin) if we wanted to ensure a boost.

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