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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:10 pm 
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I think that is what frustrated everyone. How do you know they would not have been here?? Both were fond of Pittsburgh, and perhaps if the Pirates had shown that they were serious about winning, who knows what the future had been for them? To say with certainty they would not have been here is a misnomer.

If you think back, the bucs, in spite of the terrible pitching actually had a decent first half. They were competitive with the Cardinals, and they owned the Astros and the Reds. The offense was great.....they were actually fun to watch.

After the trades they plummeted, and I mean plummeted at record speed. They became about as exciting to watch as watching paint dry. The games were over by the 4th inning because everyone knew the bucs did not have the offense to erase a two run lead.

That is when I finally threw up my hands. After all these years of empty promises and false hope, they now set me up for another four or five years of the same. Enough is enough.

Look, I love the bucs. Always have, always will. But one has to face reality. They are the Detroit Lions of major league baseball......a filler for everyone else to fill the schedule with.

To turn it around they are going to have to prove, and I mean prove, to the rest of the baseball world and the fans that they are serious. They haven't done that......Indian cricket players are not real convincing. Neither is guys who are past their prime and just want to play another year.

They have to spend some money, sign some proven ball players that are in their prime. That is the only thing that will show anyone they are serious. I've had enough of plans for the "long run".


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:14 pm 
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Amen Steve1118, amen.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:39 pm 
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No one can blame a player from the Pirates for being frustrated, and we all understand its a reporter's obligation to hold ownership's feet to the fire. But as you can probably tell from Coonelly's reaction, a story like this is just a fly smashing against his windshield. As a practical matter, the issue of spending will not be a factor for years, til the team is close to contention.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:48 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
No one can blame a player from the Pirates for being frustrated, and we all understand its a reporter's obligation to hold ownership's feet to the fire. But as you can probably tell from Coonelly's reaction, a story like this is just a fly smashing against his windshield. As a practical matter, the issue of spending will not be a factor for years, til the team is close to contention.


Exactly the point.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:56 pm 
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Argentum wrote:

The problem is that neither Bay or Nady were going to be here in the long run.


You're gonna hafta put that one in your permanent clipboard Argy, because you will have to paste it at least 10,000 more times before it sinks in.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:00 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Argentum wrote:

The problem is that neither Bay or Nady were going to be here in the long run.


You're gonna hafta put that one in your permanent clipboard Argy, because you will have to paste it at least 10,000 more times before it sinks in.

ZM


Along with the fact that Nady was having a career year that he will very likely never repeat, and that Bay is probably going to be on the downside of his career (granted, I think he has a few years left). I think the argument for keeping Bay is a little stronger than keeping Nady, but in reality, neither was going to make us a contender.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Both Charlie and Pat have given pretty good arguments as to why you trade Bay and Nady, for those who haven't read it yet...

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2008/12/17/69 ... e-jason-ba
http://whygavs.com/2008121838/pittsburg ... -past.html


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:27 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Both Charlie and Pat have given pretty good arguments as to why you trade Bay and Nady, for those who haven't read it yet...

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2008/12/17/69 ... e-jason-ba
http://whygavs.com/2008121838/pittsburg ... -past.html


Two good arguments, Charlie's in particular. Both show why this notion that the '08 team was good enough to be built on is nonsense. Trading Bay/Nady to begin reconstruction was the necessary move.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:51 pm 
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BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Argentum wrote:

The problem is that neither Bay or Nady were going to be here in the long run.


You're gonna hafta put that one in your permanent clipboard Argy, because you will have to paste it at least 10,000 more times before it sinks in.

ZM


Along with the fact that Nady was having a career year that he will very likely never repeat, and that Bay is probably going to be on the downside of his career (granted, I think he has a few years left). I think the argument for keeping Bay is a little stronger than keeping Nady, but in reality, neither was going to make us a contender.


Exactly right! Nothing wrong with selling high on these guys. Lots of other teams do this, why not us? Those of you with illusions of us being competitive with these guys are totally insane considering we had no pitching to win last year. Sure...we owned the reds and the astros, but who cares...these are not playoff teams we beat, and we would not have made a run anyway. Look at the astros for god sake...this is a team that thinks they can win every year by buying free agents. has it worked? I think not, they are just as bad as the buccos. Bottom line is that we would not have made a run at the playoffs, trades or not! At least this way, you are making an effort to get it done in the future, even if there are no gaurantees and we got a bunch of unproven guys. Lose some now, or lose alot now and maybe get lucky in the future...your choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:54 pm 
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It's kinda neat to see the same peple argue the same way every year. Just because you feel a certain way, doesn't mean you're right. Jack has once again stirred the stuff,a and now we'll have to hear again from Bull and his herd (or is it ilk?). Again and again, and again, and...

Just because you're father calls you son, doesn't mean you're bright.

Just because you're head comes to a point, doesn't mean you're sharp.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:20 pm 
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The problem wasn't the hitting for the Pirates last season (pre-trades). In fact, the Pirates had one of the best lineups in all of baseball. The problem was the pitchers had an ERA a run higher than the next worse ERA. The cure for the problem...blow up the outfield that was the best in baseball. It's not like Bay and Nady are old. They could have been Pirates for the next few years.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:36 pm 
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4 (good hitters in '08) minus 2 (after '09) = 2 (no offense in '10).

5 (rotation spots) minus 4 (useless arms) = 1 (lousy pitching staff).


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:00 am 
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IA Pirate wrote:
The problem wasn't the hitting for the Pirates last season (pre-trades). In fact, the Pirates had one of the best lineups in all of baseball. The problem was the pitchers had an ERA a run higher than the next worse ERA. The cure for the problem...blow up the outfield that was the best in baseball. It's not like Bay and Nady are old. They could have been Pirates for the next few years.

Alright, first, the Pirates never had "one of the best lineups in all of baseball," even before the trades. We had an average lineup, which likely got over-hyped because we hadn't seen an average lineup on the Pirates in years.

Second, please get it out of your head that Nady was a good outfielder. He was an average outfielder playing way over his head from April to July. His eventual fall back to normal is shown in his Yankee numbers. The Bucs sold high on Nady.

Third, Bay wasn't, and isn't, going to be good forever. If the Bucs had held onto Bay and attempted to build their system a different way, by the time they would have had core group of players ready to compete, Bay would likely have been less useful to the Bucs, a la Geoff Jenkins. Believe it or not, but Andy LaRoche, Brandon Moss, and Bryan Morris are more valuable to the Bucs than Bay is right now.

Just because Nady and Bay could have been Bucs for the next few years does NOT mean that it would have been a good idea to have held onto them for the next few years.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:32 pm 
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"begin to fail" as Huntington says??? Gimme a break. The bucs have been failing for the best part of two decades.

That is what is so frustrating to us....and apparently to Jack, as well. The Kool-Aid drinkers on this board just fall in line, and buy, hook, line, and sinker the latest in a series of "rebuilding plans". Trade what good guys we have now for "prospects", and if they ever get good we'll trade them, too, for more prospects.

I wish I had your patience. After all these years mine has run out.

Show me. Don't tell me. Talk is cheap. Results talk, BS walks.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:48 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
"begin to fail" as Huntington says??? Gimme a break. The bucs have been failing for the best part of two decades.

That is what is so frustrating to us....and apparently to Jack, as well. The Kool-Aid drinkers on this board just fall in line, and buy, hook, line, and sinker the latest in a series of "rebuilding plans". Trade what good guys we have now for "prospects", and if they ever get good we'll trade them, too, for more prospects.

I wish I had your patience. After all these years mine has run out.

Show me. Don't tell me. Talk is cheap. Results talk, BS walks.

Then f*cking walk. If you don't like it, you don't have to follow it. No one but yourself is forcing you to pay any attention to this team. If you are so continually disgusted by this organization, then stop watching. Stop acting like a pathetic mess and do something to alleviate your pain.

Prior to Dave Littlefield getting fired, I was as pissed off as you are, but I things are different now. I actually like what I'm seeing because the actions of this front office are those of organizations in similar situations that have rebuilt and have succeeded. See the Twins, Athletics, Rays, Padres, and Indians. But if Huntington was not doing those things, I would not be as optimistic as I am, and I would not be watching. I don't apparently hate myself as much as you hate yourself.

Whatever issues you had with the Pirates from 1993-2007 need to be put aside in order to give the new front office an opportunity to actually put something together. It is not fair to put the weight of Kevin McClatchy and Dave Littlefield's mistakes upon the shoulders of Frank Coonelly and Neal Huntington.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:26 pm 
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Right on Wilton...

Neal and Frank have no connection to this organization's losing prior to 2008 and you need to give them the benefit of the doubt, and if you dont like it here listening to people sipping the koolaid, hook-line-and sinker, get lost...

The only way this team was going anywhere last season would have taken a miracle...

Jack is frustrated as he has a right to be, but Neal and Frank are trying to get the best 25 guys out there, but aren't going to do it by making stupid moves wasting money on washed up, high priced free agents!!!

This could be an entirely different lineup if Andy LaRoche is healthy, Freddy is healthy, Jack is healthy, Moss and Pearce can contribute with consistant, regular atbats, and McCutchen in a Major League uniform...

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Funny thing is, at least as far as pursuing quality free agents go, alot of people act as tho all we have to do is make offers. Hows that working out for DC? Balt? Even Atlanta? The better guys, the ones with options, are not only taking the best money but theyre only going to contenders. No player worth all this handwringing is gonna come here if he gets a similar offer from a better team. And that includes players who were already on the team and would have been free agents after '09.

Building from within is no longer just a choice, its a situational necessity.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:01 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Funny thing is, at least as far as pursuing quality free agents go, alot of people act as tho all we have to do is make offers. Hows that working out for DC? Balt? Even Atlanta? The better guys, the ones with options, are not only taking the best money but theyre only going to contenders. No player worth all this handwringing is gonna come here if he gets a similar offer from a better team. And that includes players who were already on the team and would have been free agents after '09.

Building from within is no longer just a choice, its a situational necessity.


Kingston, you make a very important point, many guys want us to go out and get all these quality FA's assuming that they will want to come here. So Nutting is labeled cheap because he doesn't even waste his time. You know, I know, Nutting knows, FC and NH know, most of the people on this board know, what is it going to take to get the rest to understand?


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:36 pm 
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I'm just amazed he expects me to understand "situational necessity".

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:19 pm 
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The Pirates have a fantastic selling point to any free agent that wants to be a contender. All he has to tell the free agent is if the Pirates aren't in contention come June or July we'll trade you to the Bo Sox, Yankees, etc. Soooo...you'll be going to the Bo Sox, Yankees, just a little later in the year.

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