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 Post subject: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:14 am 
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Interesting reading in today's PG. Jack tells Frank and Neal that THEY need to be accountable and put a winner on the field. I'm not saying I agree with him.....we are too far into this to change course now, IMO, but it's still good reading.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:26 am 
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At the expense of being labeled an apologist, I think Coonelly's response is pretty much spot on:

Quote:
"We have said very clearly that a championship organization, regardless of market size, starts with a strong core group of players built from within. This year's World Series opponents provide the latest proof that drafting and developing is far more effective than attempting to buy championships on the free-agent market. I am not sure if Jack is suggesting that we return to the days when the club signed veteran players in their last years like Burnitz and Randa but, if he is, that is not a suggestion we are likely to follow. While we are aggressively pursuing several free agents in addition to Ramon Vazquez, the free-agent market is not where we are going to build the core of our team."


Jack is a stand-up guy by all accounts, I wonder though if he is harboring a little resentment at not being traded to another organization?

Also, based on Coonelly's response to Boras/Alvarez and now to a lesser extent Wilson, I can see why he was a successful arbitration lawyer. He doesn't tap dance around much does he?


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:42 am 
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As the much heralded(and much chided) Jack Wilson supporter. I have to disagree completely with Jack and am stunned at this outburst. He mentioned that there are 25 players on the team that want to "compete" and 8 that really want to "compete." Last time I checked you can't "compete" if you are playing terrible baseball, and many of that 25 weren't doing their part in "competing."

I am disappointed in Jack.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:49 am 
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So Jack Wilson calls out ownership to be accountable. How dare he. Ownership is building up forces in Latin America and signing Turban boys who have never played baseball. They have traded proven players for nobody prospects. Doesnt Jack see the master plan ahead? Jack, dont you know that this is the best management team in baseball, maybe in all of sports? Jack your job is to play baseball and let the fans make ownership accountble. Stop stating the obvious, play ball on the lousy team and collect your pay check.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:55 am 
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Here is the quote

Quote:
I know that there are 25 players right now who would love to compete at this level for the Pittsburgh Pirates. There are eight core players who are dying to compete.


So these 25 players can't compete because the owners haven't got them better players? The eight core players who are "dying to compete" obviously need to do more. Lets assume that the 8 core players are:

1. Jack Wilson - maybe he should work on getting on base more so we can "compete"

2. Adam LaRoche - maybe he should try playing the whole season so we can "compete"

3. Ian Snell - How about not getting stupid angry all the time and figure out how to pitch so we can "compete"

4. Tom Gorzelany - What the heck happened??? Fix something, anything so we can "compete"

5. Freddy Sanchez - Go get the damn shoulder fixed for real so we can "compete"

6. Ryan Doumit - gotta stay healthy all year so we can "compete"

7. Zach Duke - Dude can you throw over 90mph once? So we can "compete"

8. Nate McLouth - Maybe you should get a heating pad for your back so it won't be so sore after carrying the rest of the "core players wo are dying to compete"

Sounds to me like these 8 core players aren't even doing their job so you expect management to bring in others to do it for you?


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:05 am 
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Piratefan13

Jack Wilson is only stating what I have and what any objective person sees.....ownership does not make winning their priority. Wilson is sick of it and as a competitior, he wants to win. He wants to win and he knows its not going to happen with this organization. Good for him for speaking out. Too bad there are not enough others ripping what this ownership/management does.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:14 am 
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OK BH...

Your the owner of the Pirates and Jack Wilson just called you out. What do you do?


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:24 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
OK BH...

Your the owner of the Pirates and Jack Wilson just called you out. What do you do?


If I was the owner I would not make foolish claims about accoutability and having the best management team in baseball
But if by God's blessings I could buy the Pirates and own the team, I would follow a plan similar to what the Tigers did a few years ago and the Brewers last year. Build from within and sign or trade for proven talent. I would at least try to have payroll near most of the teams in the division that the Pirates compete in.
As per Jack Wilson if he is part of what I think is a core player to win, I keep him. If not, get what I can in a trade.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:33 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
OK BH...

Your the owner of the Pirates and Jack Wilson just called you out. What do you do?


oh, Oh! OH!

Image

I'd sign these guys ASAP:

Pudge Rodriguez
Jason Giambi
Jeff Kent
Nomar
Nomar again - I'd have him play thort (third and short combined, hey I'm looking to save money)
Pat Burrell
That game company dude
Jr
Brad Penny

In order to do this though, I'll have to increase ticket and concession prices 1000% and not offer long term deals to guys like Nate and Ryan. Oh, I gotta trade away Alvarez to but the money we save on him can be reallocated to..........wait for it........wait for it.......Bobby Abreu. Yeah, that's what I'm talkin' bout!

I truly believe this team could finally get us over the .500 hump and set us up for the next year or two!


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:59 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
OK BH...

Your the owner of the Pirates and Jack Wilson just called you out. What do you do?


If I was the owner I would not make foolish claims about accoutability and having the best management team in baseball
But if by God's blessings I could buy the Pirates and own the team, I would follow a plan similar to what the Tigers did a few years ago and the Brewers last year. Build from within and sign or trade for proven talent. I would at least try to have payroll near most of the teams in the division that the Pirates compete in.
As per Jack Wilson if he is part of what I think is a core player to win, I keep him. If not, get what I can in a trade.


Do you realize that, what you are saying is EXACTLY what the Pirates are doing? You perplex me BH, you rave about how Nutting is the culprit and then you drop this little nugget on us.

When you say, "bring payroll near most teams in the division," are you suggesting we just go out and spend money so that we have the same payroll as the other teams. That IS essentially what we would be doing, considering the actual cost to talent ratio of the players left in the FA market is not very reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:20 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:

Do you realize that, what you are saying is EXACTLY what the Pirates are doing? You perplex me BH, you rave about how Nutting is the culprit and then you drop this little nugget on us.

When you say, "bring payroll near most teams in the division," are you suggesting we just go out and spend money so that we have the same payroll as the other teams. That IS essentially what we would be doing, considering the actual cost to talent ratio of the players left in the FA market is not very reasonable.


http://www.postgameheroes.com/?p=2159
Chi.Cubs—–118,595,833
St. Louis—–100,624,450
Houston—–88,930,415
Milwaukee—–81,004,167
Cincinnati—–74,277,695
Pittsburgh—–49,365,283
It has been like this year after year. Never said spend money just to keep up with the other teams but face it..better talent costs more....this ownership had some better talent and traded it away because it was going to cost them to keep them. Same old song and you dance along with them

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:15 pm 
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You again are ASSUMING that high dollar players are going to sign on the dotted line to play for Pittsburgh. So Nutting can offer to spend all he wants but no "good" FA is going to come to the Pirates UNTIL we have a strong core of players that are "built from within." (Look at what the Nationals offered Teixera, he basically laughed at them)

Your argument is 3-4 years too early, if we develop this core of players and are playing well and then Nutting goes cheap on us... I'm on your side... You will be able to call me BH II.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:28 pm 
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Jack is only speaking the truth. I am amazed that so many bucco fans are willing to give the past 16 years or so a pass.......I know, this year will be different, just like the Detroit Lions keep telling their fans.

I know I am only a "fair weather" fan, but if Jack calls them out, perhaps they will listen. Jack speaks for so many of us. That fiasco last year, where we trade Bay and Nady and got nobody in return......this year we are signing pitchers with sore elbows that no one else wants and a couple of Indian cricket players.

Jack is frustrated......just like so many of us. The bucco brass needs to stop telling us and start doing.

As a long time Pirate fan that I work with told me this morning.....maybe this economy will put the buccos out of business, and put us all out of our misery. Just go AAA and be done with it rather than put this charade on each year.

It is time to put up or shut up.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:40 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Jack is only speaking the truth. I am amazed that so many bucco fans are willing to give the past 16 years or so a pass.......I know, this year will be different, just like the Detroit Lions keep telling their fans.

I know I am only a "fair weather" fan, but if Jack calls them out, perhaps they will listen. Jack speaks for so many of us. That fiasco last year, where we trade Bay and Nady and got nobody in return......this year we are signing pitchers with sore elbows that no one else wants and a couple of Indian cricket players.

Jack is frustrated......just like so many of us. The bucco brass needs to stop telling us and start doing.

As a long time Pirate fan that I work with told me this morning.....maybe this economy will put the buccos out of business, and put us all out of our misery. Just go AAA and be done with it rather than put this charade on each year.

It is time to put up or shut up.

Steve
It amazes me how fans put up with it. You have guys like Piratefan13 who dont think Wilson should say what he did. It is the truth. Fact is as long as enough fans are watching, listening and supporting, there is no incentive for management to try to win. They are by most accounts a very profitable business that offers a lousy product. But many feel this loyalty to support it no matter what.. and then there are the casuals who would go for the promos and so called other entertainment besides the team. They run and market the team like a minor league club because they know its the only game in town. However, as much as I bash the organization, and I dont go or watch anymore, I dont want them to ever leave town, because at some point the Nutting family will sell their investment hopefully to someone who does want to win and not just give lip service.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:54 pm 
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After reading this article I grew more upset with the Pirates ownership. This quote by Coonelly made my hair stand up..."Instead of worrying about who is and who is not here, we all need to figure out how we can win with the 25 players who report to Bradenton this spring."

I read that like, hey Jack, this is the best we can do. How dare you not win with this great talent we have acquired.

I'm with you BH...I'm not sure I can take any more of this team. I haven't been to Pittsburgh in four years. I used to make an annual trip but I can't justify it anymore. I don't have anything Pirates on my Christmas Wish List for 2008. That's the 2nd straight year. I'm not even remotely excited for 2009. Not even close. The thought of Moss, LaRoche, LaRoche, and even Sanchez in our lineup everyday bores the hell out of me.

But hey...compete with the guys we have Jack. Play your butt off and set the table for 2017, when we make our big push to win a championship.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:29 pm 
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I don't ever want them to leave, either. But, I don't see how they can continue without putting a competitive product on the field.

These are tough economic times, and there are going to be alot of the folks that go to the games solely for the promotions that are not going to spend the scheckels this year. And, the folks who love the game, and the Pirates (like me) are tired of spending their hard earned to watch them get their butts blown off on a daily basis.

Jack is right. Talk is cheap. It's time to crap or get off of the pot.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:37 pm 
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I don't see why many of you say "we got nothing in return" for the bay and marte & nady trades. I think we made out pretty well (moss excluded) considering many teams will not give up any good prospects these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:52 pm 
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Yeah, we got a pitcher that looked good for a couple of games, an outfielder that got hurt right after the trades, a slam bang prospect that has trouble getting along with his teammates and is on a first name basis with a lot of the cops in the cities in which he plays, and a couple of more. Maybe the bucs can develop them into decent players, I'm sure they have the potential, and then trade them away when they become decent for more prospects.

Look, I don't care how much money Nutting makes.....more power to him....I want to see some results. Not in 2017, but now.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:57 pm 
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urbanexplorer wrote:
I don't see why many of you say "we got nothing in return" for the bay and marte & nady trades. I think we made out pretty well (moss excluded) considering many teams will not give up any good prospects these days.



So, why trade them? They are still pretty young and have the next four years of their careers in their prime (Bay and Nady). By trading them last season the Pirates are saying they won't be contenders for the next four years, they are looking further ahead. To not pay them what they deserve is insane. I wasn't even a big Bay supporter. Does anyone think Moss or LaRoche are the answers? Instead of upgrading the Pirates they actually, ahem, got worse! Just because you make the minor league teams better doesn't mean you have legitimate Major League prospects.

Honest question...did the Pirates get two players that will be better (in the long run) than Bay or Nady? No? Then why make the trade? Maybe? You had better be sure. Yes? Then you need a better scouting director.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack calls out Neal and Frank
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:05 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Honest question...did the Pirates get two players that will be better (in the long run) than Bay or Nady? No? Then why make the trade? Maybe? You had better be sure. Yes? Then you need a better scouting director.


The problem is that neither Bay or Nady were going to be here in the long run.


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