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 Post subject: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:56 am 
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This needs to be stopped. Can't tell me these beanballs are not deliberate. During infield practice between innings, one of our infielders need to unleash a ball in their dugout and knock that toothpic out of Dusty's mouth. Hurdle need to send a strong messge and don't let the pirates be the whipping boys. Baker does this to other teams as well. Sorry for the rant.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:12 am 
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Now that the rant is over, let me say that someone is going to get injured in the beanball feasko. Don't know the answer other than the league really needs to look into the situation.
McCutchen seems to be there target to disrupt his game.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:46 am 
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I only caught some of last night's game, but I didn't see where the Pirates gave the Reds any reason to throw at them. So I don't know that either pitch was intentional.

It doesn't help the Reds to put Cutch on base. The pitch that hit him was 87.

I don't want to see a hockey mentality in the Pirate games. What I really want is for the Pirates to score more runs than the Reds tonight, and act like gentlemen while doing it.

If you deliberately throw at the other team, you are risking injury, ejection, and suspension for your own players. I would rather minimize that risk.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:09 pm 
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What did Clemenza say in The Godfather?

"This has to happen every ten years or so. Gets rid of the bad blood."

I think we are due. We need to make a statement to MLB that we are no longer a doormat, a laughingstock. I would love to see Clint go at Dusty. Three times in two years of our best player getting drilled is enough. I say Votto gets one right in the middle of the back, and I vote for Justin Wilson to deliver the message.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:17 pm 
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I agree they need to send a message now. What I can see happening are the Reds throwing at someone in the top of the 1st and then of course the Umps issuing warnings then our starting pitchers hands are tied. You can't get ejected in the 1st inning in this kind of series. I hope I am wrong but it would not shock me if it goes down that way.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:32 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
What did Clemenza say in The Godfather?

"This has to happen every ten years or so. Gets rid of the bad blood."

I think we are due. We need to make a statement to MLB that we are no longer a doormat, a laughingstock. I would love to see Clint go at Dusty. Three times in two years of our best player getting drilled is enough. I say Votto gets one right in the middle of the back, and I vote for Justin Wilson to deliver the message.


Who is the Reds' best player and how many times has he been hit by a Pirates' pitcher over the last 3 years?

The last Reds/Pirates series, included the following HBPs:

Game 1:
Choo by Wandy
Phillips by Zagurski
McCutchen by Cueto

Game 2:
Phillips by Watson
Frazier by Watson

Game 3:
Choo by Gomez
Choo by Mazzaro
Marte by Broxton
Marte by Simon
Walker by Latos

By my count, that is 6 plunked Reds versus 4 plunked Pirates. And the Reds' best player is hit twice and the Pirates' best player is hit once.

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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
I only caught some of last night's game, but I didn't see where the Pirates gave the Reds any reason to throw at them. So I don't know that either pitch was intentional.


It's more that Chapman has a history of it than if the Reds/Baker called for it intentionally (I'm sure they didn't). I talked about this in the game thread last night since I was at the game but there was also the incident last year when Chapman hit McCutchen which was extremely suspect given that the Reds had I believe 3-run lead and there were two outs in the ninth, and far and away the Pirates best player is hit with an upper 90s fastball that could have easily resulted in an injury. Also, Chapman does have good control when he wants to so the excuse of "he's just throwing really hard so the ball gets away" is kind of out the window to me. Anyway, Chapman has had a history of hitting players ever since, such as earlier this year when he threw two consecutive pitches over Nick Swisher's head. That is why I no longer have any patience for a guy out there trying to reach 100 on the radar every pitch throwing at players. Since I was at the game and sitting low third baseline I didn't get the best look at Walker getting hit last night but alas like I said, I no longer have patience for it.

I more or less agree with what you said re: beanball and "revenge", etc. Generally speaking my idea of "revenge" is just focusing on winning the game. I will admit though that with Chapman and how hard he throws, it has now moved to the point of pure annoyance. But once again my view is just win the game tonight. Personally I don't really care about stooping to that level of hitting a player back for revenge, especially against a team like the Reds and putting a free man on base (when they have Latos on the mound). But in a rare incident I can't say I will really care too much if they do decide to retaliate tonight, because once again, I can't stand Chapman.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:37 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
What did Clemenza say in The Godfather?

"This has to happen every ten years or so. Gets rid of the bad blood."

I think we are due. We need to make a statement to MLB that we are no longer a doormat, a laughingstock. I would love to see Clint go at Dusty. Three times in two years of our best player getting drilled is enough. I say Votto gets one right in the middle of the back, and I vote for Justin Wilson to deliver the message.

That would be one way.

Actually, I long for the day when a coach would be comfortable enough with himself and his masculinity to just pull his team from the game and walk away. Release a statement saying that the manager and team ownership refuse to risk the health of their players to such despicable behavior.

I tell you this, Clint goes after Dusty or Cutch goes after whatever Nasty Boy Red hits him, and all you get is a bench clearing brawl, where one of our players could very well get hurt, and it makes little impact. Oh sure, it makes ESPN highlights and there's talk for a day. But, if we pulled the team, that would get far-reaching media attention because we're basically calling the integrity of the game into question. And that would bring heat down on the Commissioner's office. Every sports writer and blogger, and maybe even George Will, will be focusing on Dusty and his boys. And then something might change.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Stripping away names . . .

Situation #1: Game #1 of series. 1st inning. 0-0. Runner on first. One out. Next batter hit by pitch. Team now has runners on 1st and 2nd and one out.

Situation #2: Game #1 of series. 8th inning. Team at-bat leading 2-0. Zero outs. No one on base. Lead-off batter hit by pitch. The plunked batter had hit a HR in his previous time at-bat.

You tell me . . which scenario is more likely the "intentional" HBP?

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:15 pm 
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I'll go with #2, because of the previous home run. But that's a stupid reason to throw at a batter.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:13 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
By my count, that is 6 plunked Reds versus 4 plunked Pirates. And the Reds' best player is hit twice and the Pirates' best player is hit once.

Brandon Phillips is not the Reds' best player.

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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Its called baseball. The game has changed quite a bit in the last 10+ years, but its still a self policing game. You hit one of mine, I hit one of yours. Until a team protects their own batters, the opposing pitchers feel "too" comfortable throwing up and in.

Just imagine the look of shock on today's players if they had to face Bob Gibson after showboating. I bet Bob would throw at his own mom during family reunion wiffleball games. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:54 pm 
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It doesn't actually work that way. Most of the time when guys get hit there is no retaliation. It's part of the game and everybody understands that. Play on.

That doesn't mean a team shouldn't stand up for itself. When it is obviously intentional, you have to retaliate. But that's not how I interpreted last night's events.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Not so sure the intent of Baker and the Reds is to necessarily HIT anyone but to INTIMIDATE.

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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:21 pm 
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My take ...

Batters get hit. It happens.

The problem is not that Leake hit McCutchen - the problem is that Aroldis Chapman is head-hunting.

Threw at Cutch's head last year, hit him on the shoulder.

Threw at Swisher's head twice in a row.

Threw at Walker's head last night.

Those are FOUR instances I remember.

And as for the "oh, he has bad control" argument - funny how he seems to go at a batter's head only with a 3-run lead and nobody on base. Odd how that "bad control leads to 100 mph pitch at batter's head" seems to occur only then.

Chapman needs to stop his head-hunting.

P.S. I can hardly wait for him to become a SP'er so he has to stand in the batter's box. I imagine a few (dozen) teams will remember the head-hunting.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:23 pm 
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Willton wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
By my count, that is 6 plunked Reds versus 4 plunked Pirates. And the Reds' best player is hit twice and the Pirates' best player is hit once.

Brandon Phillips is not the Reds' best player.


OK . . . change it to "one of the Reds' best players" and the point is exactly the same. My lord . . . I'll take missing the point for $500 Alex.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
My take ...

Batters get hit. It happens.

The problem is not that Leake hit McCutchen - the problem is that Aroldis Chapman is head-hunting.

Threw at Cutch's head last year, hit him on the shoulder.

Threw at Swisher's head twice in a row.

Threw at Walker's head last night.

Those are FOUR instances I remember.

And as for the "oh, he has bad control" argument - funny how he seems to go at a batter's head only with a 3-run lead and nobody on base. Odd how that "bad control leads to 100 mph pitch at batter's head" seems to occur only then.

Chapman needs to stop his head-hunting.

P.S. I can hardly wait for him to become a SP'er so he has to stand in the batter's box. I imagine a few (dozen) teams will remember the head-hunting.


Chapman has huge control problems. Its not only with a 3 run lead. It happens nearly every time Chapman pitches.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:32 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Chapman has huge control problems. Its not only with a 3 run lead. It happens nearly every time Chapman pitches.

Chapman's control problems and bounced pitches stem most frequently from his slider. His fastball command is not so bad that he misses by 3 feet.

If, however, it is truly a matter of horrible command, and Aroldis Chapman cannot avoid throwing at a batter's head, then he needs to look for another line of work, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:39 pm 
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There are other things that can happen on the baseball field that will allow one team to intimidate another. For instance, going hard into second base. My point being, you have a better chance of spiking a leg, swiping a leg or bull rushing a player, rather than dropping a guy and giving a free base to him.
There is always, going in hard at home plate. Rather than accepting the slide, just blast the catcher. Knock him clean out of the game. Once you send that message, then you take aim at the batter the next inning with a buzz near the head. You don't hit him but you do come damn near close to his head, enough to get a warning to both benches.
If the Reds go out and drop a Pirate, then you get up one of our guys who throws hard and that would include Cole...Bam...over and done....


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 Post subject: Re: DUSTY BAKER IS A THUG AND PUNK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:44 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
What did Clemenza say in The Godfather?

"This has to happen every ten years or so. Gets rid of the bad blood."

I think we are due. We need to make a statement to MLB that we are no longer a doormat, a laughingstock. I would love to see Clint go at Dusty. Three times in two years of our best player getting drilled is enough. I say Votto gets one right in the middle of the back, and I vote for Justin Wilson to deliver the message.


Who is the Reds' best player and how many times has he been hit by a Pirates' pitcher over the last 3 years?

The last Reds/Pirates series, included the following HBPs:

Game 1:
Choo by Wandy
Phillips by Zagurski
McCutchen by Cueto

Game 2:
Phillips by Watson
Frazier by Watson

Game 3:
Choo by Gomez
Choo by Mazzaro
Marte by Broxton
Marte by Simon
Walker by Latos

By my count, that is 6 plunked Reds versus 4 plunked Pirates. And the Reds' best player is hit twice and the Pirates' best player is hit once.

You should throw out the Choo and Marte HBP's. Both of them are asking for it. I saw all of them, and I would bet the house that none of them were intentional.

I don't think the problem is hitting batters. The problem is the tendency to throw at heads. Leake got McCutchen before in the neck, and yesterday would have hit the same spot, but Cutch managed to get his shoulder up. I don't know if Leake is going at the head on purpose, but if he can't throw inside without nearly decapitating somebody he needs to stop throwing inside.

There is no doubt in my mind that Chapman is a serial headhunter.

I posted the following elsewhere, and it sums up my feelings on the matter. Apologies to anyone who has read it elsewhere.

I think some folks are missing the point. You don’t retaliate because they might beat you as a result of a beaning attempt. You don’t retaliate because your hitters are afraid; these guys are major league hitters. They’re not going to be intimidated. You retaliate because, if you don’t, the Reds will continue to do the same thing over and over, and, sooner or later, Neil Walker’s reflexes won’t be quite enough, and he’ll be lying unconscious in the batter’s box with a pool of blood forming around his head. You don’t throw at the head. You don’t even throw at shoulder level. Dusty Baker sure as hell knows that. Perhaps he’s forgotten, and needs another reminder. So you remind him by plunking Votto or Phillips in the ribs or in the butt. Or you take your suspension and go ahead and charge the mound. But you can’t let this headhunting continue, or one of your important players is going to get seriously hurt.

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