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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:13 am 
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If we're talking about moving Pedro and Cole (which I figured was the objective from the initial post that discussed there being no room for Cole in the rotation), I'm thinking G-Mike Stanton, not Headley.

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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:14 am 
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Not quite. I just set up a situation, where by my thoughts, you need to create a roster spot for Cole from a group of performing pitchers.

I used Headley because he was "the guy everyone here wanted" at the deadline last year.

Feel free to improvise.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:18 am 
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If Jurickson Profar was available, he'd be my #1 target.


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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:21 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If Jurickson Profar was available, he'd be my #1 target.


And "freeing" Jordy Mercer to move to 3b, substituting his doubles for Pedro's HR's?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:21 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If Jurickson Profar was available, he'd be my #1 target.



Would be an interesting trade, but I imagine it would take a ton.

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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:22 am 
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Yes, but he's everyone's No. 1. Teams don't get rid of those guys.

They do however, eat contracts to move veteran players like Headley if they are in trouble.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:26 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
If Jurickson Profar was available, he'd be my #1 target.


And "freeing" Jordy Mercer to move to 3b, substituting his doubles for Pedro's HR's?

ZM


Ha! Mercer would make a fine utility guy if the Pirates acquired Profar. I like Mercer, but he's not on Profar's level.


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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:00 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
If Jurickson Profar was available, he'd be my #1 target.


And "freeing" Jordy Mercer to move to 3b, substituting his doubles for Pedro's HR's?

ZM


Ha! Mercer would make a fine utility guy if the Pirates acquired Profar. I like Mercer, but he's not on Profar's level.



Believe ZM is saying Mercer would split with Pedro, not Profar.

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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:28 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
First time I've heard a guy hitting at he Mendoza line, with nominal production and below average defense, called a "cornerstone".

So, the deal is to move that player to first and sit Jones/Sanchez?

The point of this is not what could Pedro be, but what IS he and in the context of the team winning right now.

ZM


Every time he goes through a cold streak we hear this "trade him" nonsense. It's a poor trade-off for what he offers over the next 5 years vs. what Headley offers for one half season. Even if we won the World Series because we traded for Chase Headley, which we wouldn't and won't, it's still going to bite us because we'll have to fill third base next year, likely with a guy who did not hit 30 HR's in his first full MLB season, like Pedro did.

Here's what I see: I see the Pirates off to a good start to the season, and some people jumping the gun and seeing playoffs (or even World Series) in their future, and Pedro is in one of his down streaks. So what do we do? We start shitting on Pedro and throwing him under the bus. But here's the thing, this team was REALLY close to the playoffs at one point last season, and a lot of that was because of Pedro, not in spite of him. Did we make the playoffs, or did we totally collapse for a variety of reasons that were not Pedro Alvarez?

This is the type of gamble STUPID franchises make and end up paying for it later. Pedro Alvarez IS "right now" as you put it. Chase Headley is not some other worldly player, whose half-season for us would = WS and make the whole trade worth it. If Pedro hits 30 HR's this year, are you still going to care about what he was doing in April/May? What if they made the trade, and Headley bombs at PNC and is one of the biggest reasons why we miss the playoffs? What if he gets hurt? Why are we talking about "right now" when this team was nearly a playoff team last year WITH Pedro Alvarez contributing to that success? He is not some anchor holding us down from winning anything and Chase Headley isn't going to lift that anchor.

It's absolutely dumb to consider moving a kid who has shown that he has everything it takes to be a 40-50 HR guy, who hasn't hit his prime yet for whatever reason, for a rental of what everyone should still consider a pretty unproven 29 year old player.

Pedro has the upside. It's frustrating and ugly to watch him in these downstreaks, but the payoff could and in my opinion will, be huge when it all comes together. A much better alternative than trading Pedro was suggested in another thread, trading for a solid vet third baseman who would help us down the stretch if Pedro is in his cold streak.


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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am 
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You, among others, 512, keep referring to Pedro's upside as a 40-50 HR kind of guy. I just don't see it. He's got strength/power, whatever you want to call it, but that's not nearly enough to envision him as hitting those kinds of numbers. He's got a big swing, poor pitch recognition, and let's face it, the book on how to pitch him is out. Barmes' decent-for-him month of May notwithstanding, Pedro doesn't get any kind of protection, and it seems like he's the kind of guy who needs protection. Seems to me like 40-50 HR guys are the ones who provide protection for the players in front of them, and Pedro just doesn't do this.


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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:40 am 
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For the record, I've said since Pedro came up that he doesn't seem able to catch up to MLB fastballs. He can crush the hanging 85 mph curve, but the 94 mph fastball just blows right by his bat.

You can point to Pedro's high end all you want. Will he realize it while under contract as a Pirate?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:58 am 
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Quote:
You, among others, 512, keep referring to Pedro's upside as a 40-50 HR kind of guy. I just don't see it. He's got strength/power, whatever you want to call it, but that's not nearly enough to envision him as hitting those kinds of numbers. He's got a big swing, poor pitch recognition, and let's face it, the book on how to pitch him is out. Barmes' decent-for-him month of May notwithstanding, Pedro doesn't get any kind of protection, and it seems like he's the kind of guy who needs protection. Seems to me like 40-50 HR guys are the ones who provide protection for the players in front of them, and Pedro just doesn't do this.


Every time people refer to "the book" on him, he has a hot streak proving that book wrong. He goes on a streak where he smashes outside pitches, off-speed, breaking stuff, he's proven he can do it. Hell, one of his HR's this year was murdering an outside and out of the zone pitch 400+ feet to center, which not many guys in the game would of done.

Pedro isn't just a typical "he's got power" guy. He has skill at the plate, he just hasn't honed it yet to where he can avoid the bad streaks. For instance, his K/BB right now is near identical to Josh Hamilton's. Only Pedro has more HR's and RBI's, all in less games played. Josh Hamilton has been pretty good at hitting HR's, hasn't he?
Quote:
For the record, I've said since Pedro came up that he doesn't seem able to catch up to MLB fastballs. He can crush the hanging 85 mph curve, but the 94 mph fastball just blows right by his bat.

You can point to Pedro's high end all you want. Will he realize it while under contract as a Pirate?

ZM


Though he's had no problem catching up to them when he's on. Like I said above, that's another "the book on him" myth. It isn't like he simply does not have the talent to be the kind of player I describe him as, he just hasn't figured it out yet. I think a Chris Davis or Edwin Encarnation type breakout in his late 20's is the kind of career path he's on.


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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:06 am 
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Yes, he does have that problem. Even when hot.

Can you keep Dave Kingman or Rob Deer on your team? Because that is who you are describing right now.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:23 pm 
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val wrote:
, Pedro doesn't get any kind of protection, and it seems like he's the kind of guy who needs protection. Seems to me like 40-50 HR guys are the ones who provide protection for the players in front of them, and Pedro just doesn't do this.



Bingo, this sums it up right here! He's supposed to be the guy batting fourth or fifth, with a chance to get up in the first inning not the guy who might not see the batters box until the 3rd with a tought pitcher on the mound.


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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:21 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Can you keep Dave Kingman or Rob Deer on your team? ZM

If Dave Kingman played a decent 3rd base, then yes - I would have him on my team.

A guy who is going to K a lot. A ton. But who can hit .260/.340/.550 with 40 HR's, 120 RBI's, and field his position in the infield.

But at some point, Pedro has to actually produce those numbers.

Now would be good.


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 Post subject: Re: Who thinks...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:42 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Can you keep Dave Kingman or Rob Deer on your team? Because that is who you are describing right now.

ZM


Hey! That's MY line! ;) :D

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