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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:03 pm 
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Here is how the Rays were built. Really a combination of things. I find it interesting that 3/5 of their rotation and 3 of the 9 position starters came from trades and 3 from free agency.

Pitching
Scott Kazmir (trade with Mets in 2004)
James Shields (15th round pick 2000)
Matt Garza (trade with Twins 2008 for Delmon Young 1st round pick 2003)
Andy Sonnanstine (13th round pick 2004)
Edwin Jackson (trade with Dodgers in 2006)

Troy Percival (Free agency 2008)
Dan Wheeler (Trade with Astros in 2007)
Trever Miller (Free agency 2008)
JP Howell (trade with Royals in 2006)
Grant Balfour (trade with Brewers in 2007)
David Price (1st round pick 2007)

C
Dioner Navarro (trade with Dodgers in 2006)
1B
Carlos Pena (Free agency 2007)
2B
Akinori Iwamura (Free agency 2007)
SS
Jason Bartlett (trade with Twins in 2008)
3B
Evan Longoria (1st round pick 2006)
OF
Carl Crawford (2nd round pick 1999)
BJ Upton (1st round pick 2002)
Gabe Gross (trade with Brewers in 2008)
DH
Cliff Floyd (Free agency 2008)
Bench
Eric Hinske (Free agency 2008)
Wily Aybar (trade with Braves in 2008)
Ben Zobrist (trade with Astros in 2006 for Aubrey Huff 1998 5th round pick)
Jonny Gomes (18h round pick in 2001)
Rocco Baldelli (1st round pick 2000)

So they were built with 8 draft picks (4 1st round), 11 with trades including the trades of 1 1st round pick, and 6 free agents.

Draft picks
1999-2nd round
2000-1st round, 15th round
2001-18th round
2002-1st round
2004-13th round
2006-1st round
2007-1st round

Trades
2004-Kazmir
2006-Jackson, Zobrist, Howell, Navarro
2007-Wheeler, Balfour
2008-Bartlett, Garza, Aybar, Gross

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:19 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Oh but those are facts nad69dan... Complainologists don't recognize facts because they would supplant their argument.

Complainologist is alright, but I prefer to use the term "troll." It's much more descriptive of their behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:23 pm 
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Now you offended the entire troll population with your insensitive remarks.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:54 pm 
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bradf wrote:
Now you offended the entire troll population with your insensitive remarks.

Fine. Please direct me to the microphone at the nearest press conference so that I may apologize.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Willton wrote:
bradf wrote:
Now you offended the entire troll population with your insensitive remarks.

Fine. Please direct me to the microphone at the nearest press conference so that I may apologize.


Image


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:01 pm 
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...AHA!! You admit to being an apologist!!! :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:05 pm 
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bradf wrote:
...AHA!! You admit to being an apologist!!! :twisted:

Wow, kudos!

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:13 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
First off, it might have taken Tampa 10 years to get to the Playoffs, but they weren't building for 10 years to get there...

Some of the early Tampa teams included Jose Canseco, Wade Boggs, Fred McGriff, Wilson Alvarez, Vinny Castilla, and Diwght Gooden...All good players at one time, but pretty much crap and over the hill in Tampa...

Once a new management team was in place, things changed and the team started drafting its talented core of players and making wise trades acquiring pieces...


Oh but those are facts nad69dan... Complainologists don't recognize facts because they would supplant their argument.

Now again... I will make this statement/question(for the millionth time) Given the "supposed" surplus of money Nutting is supposedly padding his retirement fund with, and the current status of the club. Please, complainologist, give us YOUR RECOMENDATIONS as to how the Pirates FO staff and the owner(Mr. Bob "Deep pockets because of luxury tax" Nutting) can make this club win THIS YEAR. Since you are so concerned about filling the seats.

Wait.. let me Bold and italicise that so that it won't be missed, because this has yet to be answered. We sure hear lots of complaints but no actual real solution ideas.

SO this is a challenge from an "apologist" (as I am being labeled) to all you complainologists who yak yak yak about trading Bay and Nady and not going after Sabathia, or wanting us to trade all of our bad players for all of another teams good prospects, or maybe, wait, maybe, whether or not Nutting should comp all of your tickets because the team sucks, oh and better yet, he should take every bit of his funds and buy players like Burnitz and Derek Bell, just to keep guys like you interested.

If you can back up your complaints with some kind of concrete evidence and/or a viable possible solution, I'll buy you a Dr. Pepper(has that deal been used?).


If you'll go back and read my quite sensical posts that did not include any initial bashing or much complaining, I gave no solutions as to what the Pirates can do in 2009. Basically there are none. They're not going to win, and if they're going to lose, they might as well be the worst and lose enough to get the first pick in the 2010 draft. It would be stupid right now to pursue any major free agents, and chances are good that nobody is going to coming out to the ballpark this year. Basically 2009 is going to be a miserable year for the Pittsburgh Pirates, no ands ifs or buts.

However, I did say that I would hope given that we do two pretty good position players already on the roster in McLouth and Doumit, and 3 on the way in McCutchen, Alvarez and Tabata, and given that our minor league pitching is pretty well void of anything, that when these 5 guys are comfortably part of our roster, that we go out and spend money to get pitching or at least attempt to do what the Orioles and Nationals are attempting to do now, which is going out and trying to acquire a superstar to complement their highly regarded younger players.

I realize that one superstar pitcher is probably not going to cut it, so I would resolve that in 2010 or 2011 we would go out and attempt to acquire those year's equivalent of what Ben Sheets and AJ Burnett are in today's free agent market, i.e. instead of trying to spend say 120 million for 1 pitcher, go out and sign 2 or 3 for 120 million.

I'm telling you if we have to wait around until 2015 to build a team and a system like the Rays did, they might as well move the team to Portland because they won't have any fans left. MOST people do not want to hear that they have to keep waiting.

I'll accept Paypal for my Dr. Pepper.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:28 am 
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omgardd wrote:
If you'll go back and read my quite sensical posts that did not include any initial bashing or much complaining, I gave no solutions as to what the Pirates can do in 2009. Basically there are none. They're not going to win, and if they're going to lose, they might as well be the worst and lose enough to get the first pick in the 2010 draft. It would be stupid right now to pursue any major free agents, and chances are good that nobody is going to coming out to the ballpark this year. Basically 2009 is going to be a miserable year for the Pittsburgh Pirates, no ands ifs or buts.

However, I did say that I would hope given that we do two pretty good position players already on the roster in McLouth and Doumit, and 3 on the way in McCutchen, Alvarez and Tabata, and given that our minor league pitching is pretty well void of anything, that when these 5 guys are comfortably part of our roster, that we go out and spend money to get pitching or at least attempt to do what the Orioles and Nationals are attempting to do now, which is going out and trying to acquire a superstar to complement their highly regarded younger players.

I realize that one superstar pitcher is probably not going to cut it, so I would resolve that in 2010 or 2011 we would go out and attempt to acquire those year's equivalent of what Ben Sheets and AJ Burnett are in today's free agent market, i.e. instead of trying to spend say 120 million for 1 pitcher, go out and sign 2 or 3 for 120 million.

I'm telling you if we have to wait around until 2015 to build a team and a system like the Rays did, they might as well move the team to Portland because they won't have any fans left. MOST people do not want to hear that they have to keep waiting.

I'll accept Paypal for my Dr. Pepper.

Okay, now I'm confused. You said earlier that what you wanted the Bucs to do was what the Nats are currently doing, which is making a big offer to Mark Teixeira. Now you say that you realize that going after such a player at this time would be a bad idea.

So ..... why are you complaining?

Look, I understand that you're tired of waiting. Most people do not want to have to wait for anything, and having to endure 16 years of hardship can make anyone impatient. But the reality of the situation here is that our team is not going to become contenders overnight, and attempting to do so will likely make this organization worse off than when Coonelly and Huntington got here. As much as it may cause you pain, if you want to see a winning franchise in Pittsburgh, then you are going to have to be patient.

From 2003-2007, I grew weary of a team that claimed that it wanted to win and then did almost everything possible to jeopardize the chances of doing so. That was back when McClatchy was in charge and Littlefield, Graham, and Creech were running the show. Now that Coonelly and Huntington are here, I'm actually seeing signs of progress and good decision-making. Unfortunately, I think that is being lost on those who keep harping on the bad stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:56 am 
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Nowhere ever did I say that the Pirates should make a run at Mark Teixiera or any significant free agent this year. This year is a wash. Everybody with a brain knows this is not a good year to be a Pirate Fan. I've said all along that I hope they're making a big run at free agent pitching in '10 or '11 and be willing to raise the payroll significantly when the big 3 prospects are ready, along the same lines of the Nats and O's making a run at Teixiera this year.

I'm giving them til then, I am not willing to wait until 2015. Most people have already quit on them and the few remaining that haven't DEFINITELY will not wait around as long as it takes to build a stacked top to bottom system like the Rays have.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:38 pm 
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Quote:
soon they're going to be playing before crowds in the hundreds, which isn't good for anybody.


It'd be good for me...it can get crowded in those bleachers.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:43 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
I'm giving them til then, I am not willing to wait until 2015. Most people have already quit on them and the few remaining that haven't DEFINITELY will not wait around as long as it takes to build a stacked top to bottom system like the Rays have.


It didn't take the Rays 10 years to build a winning team once they found the right people to run the front office...

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:40 pm 
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I have to wonder what board this loser got kicked off of that made him come here.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:02 pm 
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Andrew Friedman took over the Tampa GMs role from the idiot Chuck Lamar in 2005. Granted, there was talent waiting for him there when he took over the reigns, but basically '05 to '08 was the window of time it took Friedman to turn that organization around.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Andrew Friedman took over the Tampa GMs role from the idiot Chuck Lamar in 2005. Granted, there was talent waiting for him there when he took over the reigns, but basically '05 to '08 was the window of time it took Friedman to turn that organization around.

I expect that it will take the Pirates current front office a bit longer, as we do not have nearly as much talent as the Rays had in 2005. However, I could see gradual improvement happening more quickly here than in Tampa, mainly due to the competition in the NL Central.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:31 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Andrew Friedman took over the Tampa GMs role from the idiot Chuck Lamar in 2005. Granted, there was talent waiting for him there when he took over the reigns, but basically '05 to '08 was the window of time it took Friedman to turn that organization around.

I expect that it will take the Pirates current front office a bit longer, as we do not have nearly as much talent as the Rays had in 2005. However, I could see gradual improvement happening more quickly here than in Tampa, mainly due to the competition in the NL Central.


I agree with all that.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:54 am 
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Why any of you supposed knowledgeable fanatics of the sport of baseball would prefer either Jack or this guy over the upcoming star SS Brian Bixler is far beyond me.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:03 pm 
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However, I did say that I would hope given that we do two pretty good position players already on the roster in McLouth and Doumit, and 3 on the way in McCutchen, Alvarez and Tabata, and given that our minor league pitching is pretty well void of anything, that when these 5 guys are comfortably part of our roster, that we go out and spend money to get pitching or at least attempt to do what the Orioles and Nationals are attempting to do now, which is going out and trying to acquire a superstar to complement their highly regarded younger players.

I realize that one superstar pitcher is probably not going to cut it, so I would resolve that in 2010 or 2011 we would go out and attempt to acquire those year's equivalent of what Ben Sheets and AJ Burnett are in today's free agent market, i.e. instead of trying to spend say 120 million for 1 pitcher, go out and sign 2 or 3 for 120 million.

I'm telling you if we have to wait around until 2015 to build a team and a system like the Rays did, they might as well move the team to Portland because they won't have any fans left. MOST people do not want to hear that they have to keep waiting.

I'll accept Paypal for my Dr. Pepper.


Omgarrd,
I might have to give you a Dr. Pepper for this... (hope you got the whole Guns-n-Roses, Dr. Pepper thing)

What I believe will happen with the Pirates is this;
1. 2009 we will continue to stockpile talent and develop the top prospects of this organization. Some may see time in the ML this year, many won't, but that's OK.

2. 2010 This team will begin to take shape and guys like Tabata, Walker, Alvarez will see some time in the ML.

3. 2011 Our core group of prospects should all be playing at the ML level at the beginning of the season. If they are in contention by the break, we might be buyers at the deadline.

4. 2012 This is where I believe Nutting will open the checkbook, this is where we will add the pieces needed to make a run at the WS.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:59 am 
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I did get the reference.

I have my doubts that we'll ever really be buyers. I'm one of the much beloved pessimists here and I believe that line is just one to appease what little fan base is left.

However I hope you're right and if the day comes that we do become buyers, we end up with more than Shawon Dunston.

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