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 Post subject: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:33 pm 
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This is a better filler than Chris Gomez. He can play all four infield positions.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08346/934485-100.stm

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:34 pm 
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Look out Cubs. We're breathing down your necks now.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:39 pm 
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So basically every move they make, you are going to make comments like that? What exactly would you do right now for 2009?

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:15 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
So basically every move they make, you are going to make comments like that? What exactly would you do right now for 2009?


Nothing will be right unless they trade Burnett for Jake Peavy, Jack Wilson for A Rod and Jeter, and deal LaRoche for Morneau and Mauer...

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:58 pm 
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I don't have a problem with the signing per se, but this looks like more of a safety net for LaRoche than someone who could step in for Jack - particularly if and when he's traded. LaRoche will likely be run out there daily anyway, so I hope there's another infield move coming - - sometime. It looks like '03 since Vazquez spent a decent chunk of his playing time at short.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:06 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
What exactly would you do right now for 2009?


See my post about the Nationals.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:03 am 
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You would take a pitcher with the No. 1 pick in the draft? Sign Texiera? I am not sure where you are coming from. To use the Nats or Orioles as an example of how to run a franchise doesn't make much sense considering how bad they have both been for years.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:18 am 
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Every building block has been either drafted or acquired by either of these teams within the past 5 years, Zimmerman and Markakis for example or even in some cases the past two years, Jones, Milledge, Matusz, Scott, etc. It is possible to build a team fairly quickly. It doesn't take 16 years to build a contender.
Many people think the Orioles are big market because they have an owner who in the past has thrown money around. Although it would be a nice alternative to what we have here, it's not always the wisest move as the Orioles have proved. However Baltimore is not big market, it's roughly the same as Pittsburgh when you take into account Pittsburgh's metro population of 2,467,571 to Baltimore's 2,668,056. They're just recogonizing their talent is just about ready and are trying to add the big bat at whatever cost to go with it. It's a nice combination of big name expensive high quality talent and quality low cost top level prospects.


That is what I want from the Pirates, and although it would be nice to hope that they're on the way of getting in that position, previous management has blundered so bad and left us with a barren cupboard to go along with our 16 years of futility that the cross section of Pittsburgh sports fans that aren't anything like the people on this board that make up the majority absolutely do not have the patience to wait long enough to give FC and NH the benefit of the doubt. Especially in this town where we've had only about 2 years of bad Penguins hockey in between the Lemieux and Crosby eras and have had consistently good Steeler teams for over a decade. Totally different leagues and ways of doing business I know, but you can't expect people to wait and wait and wait and wait in this town.

Honest question, giving FC and NH the benefit of the doubt, if all goes according to plan, what year do you anticipate the Pirates being competitive? Either of the teams I mentioned above will be ready by 2010 if either one of them lands Teixiera. The Pirates certainly aren't going to be ready by 2010. Sure they have Alvarez, Tabata, McClouth, Doumit and McCutchen, but where's the pitching? It's going to take til 2012 or 2013 just to have any sort of pitching ready if all goes well because they have nothing besides Brad Tommy John Lincoln and Bryan Morris who's still an unknown, in the system at all.

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Last edited by omgardd on Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:38 am 
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omgardd wrote:
Every building block has been either drafted or acquired by either of these teams within the past 5 years, Zimmerman and Markakis for example or even in some cases the past two years, Jones, Milledge, Matusz, Scott, etc. It is possible to build a team fairly quickly. It doesn't take 16 years to build a contender.
Many people think the Orioles are big market because they have an owner who in the past has thrown money around. Although it would be a nice alternative to what we have here, it's not always the wisest move as the Orioles have proved. However Baltimore is not big market, it's roughly the same as Pittsburgh when you take into account Pittsburgh's metro population of 2,467,571 to Baltimore's 2,668,056. They're just recogonizing their talent is just about ready and are trying to add the big bat at whatever cost to go with it. It's a nice combination of big name expensive high quality talent and quality low cost top level prospects. That is what I want from the Pirates.

Honest question, giving FC and NH the benefit of the doubt, if all goes according to plan, what year do you anticipate the Pirates being competitive? Either of these teams will be ready by 2010 if either one of them lands Teixiera. The Pirates certainly aren't going to be ready by 2010. Sure they have Alvarez, Tabata, McClouth, Doumit and McCutchen, but where's the pitching? It's going to take til 2012 or 2013 just to have any sort of pitching ready if all goes well because they have nothing besides Brad Tommy John Lincoln and Bryan Morris who's still an unknown, in the system at all.

So, given that we admittedly do not have this solid core of players that you claim the Nats and O's appear to have, your advise is to buy expensive free-agent talent? Isn't that exactly what the Orioles have done for the past 5 years when they did NOT have a good farm system, a practice that has caused them to be one of the worst teams in baseball?

And please tell me you are not demanding that the Pirates build a good farm system in the confine of 2 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:44 am 
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Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
Every building block has been either drafted or acquired by either of these teams within the past 5 years, Zimmerman and Markakis for example or even in some cases the past two years, Jones, Milledge, Matusz, Scott, etc. It is possible to build a team fairly quickly. It doesn't take 16 years to build a contender.
Many people think the Orioles are big market because they have an owner who in the past has thrown money around. Although it would be a nice alternative to what we have here, it's not always the wisest move as the Orioles have proved. However Baltimore is not big market, it's roughly the same as Pittsburgh when you take into account Pittsburgh's metro population of 2,467,571 to Baltimore's 2,668,056. They're just recogonizing their talent is just about ready and are trying to add the big bat at whatever cost to go with it. It's a nice combination of big name expensive high quality talent and quality low cost top level prospects. That is what I want from the Pirates.

Honest question, giving FC and NH the benefit of the doubt, if all goes according to plan, what year do you anticipate the Pirates being competitive? Either of these teams will be ready by 2010 if either one of them lands Teixiera. The Pirates certainly aren't going to be ready by 2010. Sure they have Alvarez, Tabata, McClouth, Doumit and McCutchen, but where's the pitching? It's going to take til 2012 or 2013 just to have any sort of pitching ready if all goes well because they have nothing besides Brad Tommy John Lincoln and Bryan Morris who's still an unknown, in the system at all.

So, given that we admittedly do not have this solid core of players that you claim the Nats and O's appear to have, your advise is to buy expensive free-agent talent? Isn't that exactly what the Orioles have done for the past 5 years when they did NOT have a good farm system, a practice that has caused them to be one of the worst teams in baseball?

And please tell me you are not demanding that the Pirates build a good farm system in the confine of 2 years.


No. I'm advising in two years when McCutchen, Alvarez and Tabata are ready and hoping that McClouth and Doumit are still around that we don't wait around for minor league pitching to develop because I don't believe we even have it in the system yet. Go throw 100 million at an arm (2010's equivalent of an AJ Burnett for example) to go along with those bats.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:14 am 
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Like I said in the other thread, one pitcher does not a pitching staff make.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:26 am 
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Willton wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, one pitcher does not a pitching staff make.


The point is this. Everybody can agree that Tampa Bay is the protype for how a small market franchise should be built. Tampa had been awful since 1998 and have been building since then, we're going on 17 and people are simply not going to be afford the Pirates the time anymore that it takes to build a team the way Tampa Bay has. You guys have the patience myself and others that you criticize here will never have, god bless you, but attendance is going to be down to the low thousands this year and they have to at least show the casual fan that doesn't follow players in the minors that they're doing something because the novelty of PNC is pretty much worn off and soon they're going to be playing before crowds in the hundreds, which isn't good for anybody.

It has to be the way the Orioles and the Nationals are trying doing things now, for us in 2010 when our position players are ready to go. If you don't want to throw 100 million at one pitcher throw 50 million at two. 33.333333 million at three, and by all means continue to draft every year the way we did this year, it shouldn't matter what a draft prospect wants as a salary or who his agent is, get the best possible player every year. The Orioles didn't balk at Bora's demands for Wieters and look at that situation in retrospect.

But no matter who's fault it is, at this point, the Tampa route is just not feasible.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:18 am 
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omgardd wrote:
Willton wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, one pitcher does not a pitching staff make.


The point is this. Everybody can agree that Tampa Bay is the protype for how a small market franchise should be built. Tampa had been awful since 1998 and have been building since then, we're going on 17 and people are simply not going to be afford the Pirates the time anymore that it takes to build a team the way Tampa Bay has. You guys have the patience myself and others that you criticize here will never have, god bless you, but attendance is going to be down to the low thousands this year and they have to at least show the casual fan that doesn't follow players in the minors that they're doing something because the novelty of PNC is pretty much worn off and soon they're going to be playing before crowds in the hundreds, which isn't good for anybody.

It has to be the way the Orioles and the Nationals are trying doing things now, for us in 2010 when our position players are ready to go. If you don't want to throw 100 million at one pitcher throw 50 million at two. 33.333333 million at three, and by all means continue to draft every year the way we did this year, it shouldn't matter what a draft prospect wants as a salary or who his agent is, get the best possible player every year. The Orioles didn't balk at Bora's demands for Wieters and look at that situation in retrospect.

But no matter who's fault it is, at this point, the Tampa route is just not feasible.


You have no choice but to be patient. The attendance in Tampa didn't derail their rebuild, why should it derail us. Don't go to the games, its your decision, but your boycott isn't going to stop the process that is happening now.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:45 am 
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Sigh. Pirate management loves your attitude. Be sure to pick up your free Piratefest tickets at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center willcall.

Should that be the slogan for 2009?

"Pirates Baseball 2009: If you don't like it, don't come!"

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:09 am 
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omgardd wrote:
Sigh. Pirate management loves your attitude. Be sure to pick up your free Piratefest tickets at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center willcall.

Should that be the slogan for 2009?

"Pirates Baseball 2009: If you don't like it, don't come!"


It beat the hell out of the runner up slogan:

"Pirates Baseball 2009: Bitch about it on a message board...that will sure make a difference!"


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:26 am 
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The Madden Army is really starting to piss me off.

I wish they'd go back to the Steelers boards where they belong.


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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:31 am 
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BBF wrote:
omgardd wrote:
Sigh. Pirate management loves your attitude. Be sure to pick up your free Piratefest tickets at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center willcall.

Should that be the slogan for 2009?

"Pirates Baseball 2009: If you don't like it, don't come!"


It beat the hell out of the runner up slogan:

"Pirates Baseball 2009: Bitch about it on a message board...that will sure make a difference!"



Better yet.

Image See you at the ballpark. Oh come on, you know we will."

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:33 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
The Madden Army is really starting to piss me off.

I wish they'd go back to the Steelers boards where they belong.



What does the great Mr. Madden have to do with any of this. If you're looking for another board to go to, try this one.

http://www.changeinatmosphere.com/forum ... howforum=2

They won't piss you off at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:01 pm 
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First off, it might have taken Tampa 10 years to get to the Playoffs, but they weren't building for 10 years to get there...

Some of the early Tampa teams included Jose Canseco, Wade Boggs, Fred McGriff, Wilson Alvarez, Vinny Castilla, and Diwght Gooden...All good players at one time, but pretty much crap and over the hill in Tampa...

Once a new management team was in place, things changed and the team started drafting its talented core of players and making wise trades acquiring pieces...

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 Post subject: Re: Bucs trying to sign Vazquez
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:22 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
First off, it might have taken Tampa 10 years to get to the Playoffs, but they weren't building for 10 years to get there...

Some of the early Tampa teams included Jose Canseco, Wade Boggs, Fred McGriff, Wilson Alvarez, Vinny Castilla, and Diwght Gooden...All good players at one time, but pretty much crap and over the hill in Tampa...

Once a new management team was in place, things changed and the team started drafting its talented core of players and making wise trades acquiring pieces...


Oh but those are facts nad69dan... Complainologists don't recognize facts because they would supplant their argument.

Now again... I will make this statement/question(for the millionth time) Given the "supposed" surplus of money Nutting is supposedly padding his retirement fund with, and the current status of the club. Please, complainologist, give us YOUR RECOMENDATIONS as to how the Pirates FO staff and the owner(Mr. Bob "Deep pockets because of luxury tax" Nutting) can make this club win THIS YEAR. Since you are so concerned about filling the seats.

Wait.. let me Bold and italicise that so that it won't be missed, because this has yet to be answered. We sure hear lots of complaints but no actual real solution ideas.

SO this is a challenge from an "apologist" (as I am being labeled) to all you complainologists who yak yak yak about trading Bay and Nady and not going after Sabathia, or wanting us to trade all of our bad players for all of another teams good prospects, or maybe, wait, maybe, whether or not Nutting should comp all of your tickets because the team sucks, oh and better yet, he should take every bit of his funds and buy players like Burnitz and Derek Bell, just to keep guys like you interested.

If you can back up your complaints with some kind of concrete evidence and/or a viable possible solution, I'll buy you a Dr. Pepper(has that deal been used?).


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