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 Post subject: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:32 pm 
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If Marte and Snider went back-to-back and Lynn threw right under McCutchen's chin, how many here would have been calling for Lynn's ejection? I know where I stand on that. It is my opinion that Sanchez was not trying to hit Craig but there was a purpose behind that pitch and it was not a "mistake" that he threw up and tight.

I can't be more pissed off about how that played out. He not only gave up 2 HRs but got tossed for NO reason - further taxing an an already taxed bullpen. Why? Because he was pitching like crap and was pissed that he gave up 2 HRs. He put himself in front of the team.

He also potentially started a bean ball war where his teammates could get hurt. Why? Because he stunk last night.

Frankly, I hope that management cut his ass.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Disagreed, I do not think a guy fighting for his roster spot was trying to put an extra man on base after his abysmal start giving up the HRs in the first inning of a game. Just like the majority of HPBs, I think it was a ball that got away and a pure coincidence.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Sometimes you have to pitch in when you're getting killed and the pitch presumably got away. Craig isn't the first player in MLB history to take one up around the noggin. I'm not aware of any history between Sanchez and Craig.

In the end the bucs came away with a loss, a taxed bullpen, and two very sore players.

Walker. Hand. Stitches.
Marte. Wrist. Hand. Hit by pitch twice (cough) up and in.

Good riddance Sanchez. Hopefully soon good riddance to a couple shortstops.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:56 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
Disagreed, I do not think a guy fighting for his roster spot was trying to put an extra man on base after his abysmal start giving up the HRs in the first inning of a game. Just like the majority of HPBs, I think it was a ball that got away and a pure coincidence.


Not buying it as a coincidence. Not for a moment.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:14 pm 
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It's the Cardinals. They throw at our guys every year anyways. Intentional or not, it isn't as big a deal as some are making it out to be. He probably shouldn't of been ejected so soon, though. Bad umpiring.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:16 pm 
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There's no way to know what the guy's intent was. Certainly he could have been trying to hit the batter. And certainly the pitch could have just gotten away from him. He was nervous because he knew his job was on the line, and he had not demonstrated any kind of control to that point in the game.

I don't think he should have been tossed. It certainly didn't help matters, because there were lots more pitches up and in after he was gone.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:06 pm 
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I understand your point, No. 9. However, Sanchez' control is so God-awful that I would not be surprised if he hit the bull.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:39 pm 
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So what? The whole scenerio stunk. I personally think they should have warned Sanchez at that point. But they didn't...they kicked him out and gave a warning. So Lynn should have been ejected as soon as Marte was hit, accident or not. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it!

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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:48 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Not buying it as a coincidence. Not for a moment.


The alternative is the "he was angry about his awful start" argument that you presented ... I think that you are villainizing J. Sanchez because he's awful. And his start in this game was obviously awful as well. If it was a guy like Burnett or Wandy on the mound I think we'd all be in agreeance that the HBP was unintentional. This guy is essentially pitching to keep his spot on the roster in one last evaluation*, I seriously doubt after giving up the back-to-back HRs to start the game he would be interested in putting two men on base with 0 outs because his emotions got the best of him.

*and yes, I'm sure Sanchez himself, like everyone else, realized that he was already a dead man walking and even if he had pitched a complete game shutout last night, his roster spot would still be in serious jeopardy. Regardless, I don't see him hitting someone in the first inning for no reason.

The bigger issue here, regardless of if it was intentional or not, was the ridiculous ejection of Sanchez in the first inning and subsequently Lance Lynn's hitting of the same Pirates player twice (after the benches had been warned) getting seemingly no notice of the umpire. If these had been bigger market teams I feel like that would have been a very hot button issue in sports media right now. Bench warnings are supposed to exist for a reason. Last night those rules were in effect in some kind of reverse bizarro world.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:19 am 
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TheShark wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Not buying it as a coincidence. Not for a moment.


The alternative is the "he was angry about his awful start" argument that you presented ... I think that you are villainizing J. Sanchez because he's awful. And his start in this game was obviously awful as well. If it was a guy like Burnett or Wandy on the mound I think we'd all be in agreeance that the HBP was unintentional. This guy is essentially pitching to keep his spot on the roster in one last evaluation*, I seriously doubt after giving up the back-to-back HRs to start the game he would be interested in putting two men on base with 0 outs because his emotions got the best of him.

*and yes, I'm sure Sanchez himself, like everyone else, realized that he was already a dead man walking and even if he had pitched a complete game shutout last night, his roster spot would still be in serious jeopardy. Regardless, I don't see him hitting someone in the first inning for no reason.

The bigger issue here, regardless of if it was intentional or not, was the ridiculous ejection of Sanchez in the first inning and subsequently Lance Lynn's hitting of the same Pirates player twice (after the benches had been warned) getting seemingly no notice of the umpire. If these had been bigger market teams I feel like that would have been a very hot button issue in sports media right now. Bench warnings are supposed to exist for a reason. Last night those rules were in effect in some kind of reverse bizarro world.


If Burnett, Rodriguez, McDonald or any other Pirate pitcher plunked a hitter after giving up back-to-back home runs to start a game, my conclusion would be the same. Wouldn't buy the coincidence argument. Just as I wouldn't if the roles had been reversed. Just as I don't believe that Aroldis Chapman had one get away from him with Cutch at the plate last year.

As for Marte getting plunked twice, the ump still possesses the discretion to throw out a pitcher even after warnings issued and neither pitch was far off the inside of the plate. Particularly the second one - I thought that it was on the black but high. Sanchez's HBP was the closest to looking lie retaliation but, to be fair, Hughes' high and tight buzzing of Lynn looked worse to me.

As for Sanchez's intent, go back and watch how quickly Martin gets out of the box and between Sanchez and Craig. If it was so ridiculous that Sanchez threw at him intentionally, then why did Martin immediately place himself in between the 2? Pretty sure that Martin anticipated how it would be perceived.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:22 am 
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Probably because Martin knows Craig is hot headed. Who doesn't know that? Yes, Martin is going to step in front of his pitcher if the batter takes a step forward out of the box. That's what he's supposed to do. Protect his teamate.

At some point I hope they throw at Lynn down the road, again.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:33 am 
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Lynn being allowed to hit a guy twice after the benches were warned was the epitome of home cooking by the umps.

Tabata got drilled last night too albeit by a pitcher struggling with control, but still 96 in the kidney had to hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:45 pm 
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The idea that because Martin quickly stepped in front of Craig proves that Sanchez intended to hit Craig is ridiculous. About as ridiculous as it is to suspend Sanchez.

I would expect Martin to react that way even if the beaning was a complete accident.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:25 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
If Marte and Snider went back-to-back and Lynn threw right under McCutchen's chin, how many here would have been calling for Lynn's ejection? I know where I stand on that. It is my opinion that Sanchez was not trying to hit Craig but there was a purpose behind that pitch and it was not a "mistake" that he threw up and tight.

I can't be more pissed off about how that played out. He not only gave up 2 HRs but got tossed for NO reason - further taxing an an already taxed bullpen. Why? Because he was pitching like crap and was pissed that he gave up 2 HRs. He put himself in front of the team.

He also potentially started a bean ball war where his teammates could get hurt. Why? Because he stunk last night.

Frankly, I hope that management cut his ass.

I would think that if he was going to after a hitter, it would have been the third guy. I don't think the pitch was intentional.

I don't have a problem with him getting tossed, though. The ump can surely justify his decision. My problem with the whole thing is that the Cards went on to hit three Pirates after a warning was issued with not a word from the ump. What is the point of issuing a warning in the first place?

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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:27 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
TheShark wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Not buying it as a coincidence. Not for a moment.


The alternative is the "he was angry about his awful start" argument that you presented ... I think that you are villainizing J. Sanchez because he's awful. And his start in this game was obviously awful as well. If it was a guy like Burnett or Wandy on the mound I think we'd all be in agreeance that the HBP was unintentional. This guy is essentially pitching to keep his spot on the roster in one last evaluation*, I seriously doubt after giving up the back-to-back HRs to start the game he would be interested in putting two men on base with 0 outs because his emotions got the best of him.

*and yes, I'm sure Sanchez himself, like everyone else, realized that he was already a dead man walking and even if he had pitched a complete game shutout last night, his roster spot would still be in serious jeopardy. Regardless, I don't see him hitting someone in the first inning for no reason.

The bigger issue here, regardless of if it was intentional or not, was the ridiculous ejection of Sanchez in the first inning and subsequently Lance Lynn's hitting of the same Pirates player twice (after the benches had been warned) getting seemingly no notice of the umpire. If these had been bigger market teams I feel like that would have been a very hot button issue in sports media right now. Bench warnings are supposed to exist for a reason. Last night those rules were in effect in some kind of reverse bizarro world.


If Burnett, Rodriguez, McDonald or any other Pirate pitcher plunked a hitter after giving up back-to-back home runs to start a game, my conclusion would be the same. Wouldn't buy the coincidence argument. Just as I wouldn't if the roles had been reversed. Just as I don't believe that Aroldis Chapman had one get away from him with Cutch at the plate last year.

As for Marte getting plunked twice, the ump still possesses the discretion to throw out a pitcher even after warnings issued and neither pitch was far off the inside of the plate. Particularly the second one - I thought that it was on the black but high. Sanchez's HBP was the closest to looking lie retaliation but, to be fair, Hughes' high and tight buzzing of Lynn looked worse to me.

As for Sanchez's intent, go back and watch how quickly Martin gets out of the box and between Sanchez and Craig. If it was so ridiculous that Sanchez threw at him intentionally, then why did Martin immediately place himself in between the 2? Pretty sure that Martin anticipated how it would be perceived.

Craig was obviously thinking about charging the mound. You could practically see the gears turning in his head. That's why Martin stepped out in front of him.

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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
The idea that because Martin quickly stepped in front of Craig proves that Sanchez intended to hit Craig is ridiculous. About as ridiculous as it is to suspend Sanchez.

I would expect Martin to react that way even if the beaning was a complete accident.


How many times have you seen Martin jump out between the hitter and the pitcher this year on a HBP before Craig was nailed? I've seen most of the games and its the first time that I've seen it happen. It was a volatile situation and Martin was savvy enough to recognize it right from the start.

As for Marte getting beaned twice, take another look at the two pitches and watch how little Marte moves in an effort to avoid getting struck. Issuing a warning to the teams does not equate to taking away the inside part of the plate for the pitcher. Marte has a tendency to dive into the pitch and, in both instances, it appears that Marte actually checked his swing early. Neither of the pitches had any indicia of being retaliatory. The that could've drawn some scrutiny was when Sanchez was plunked. That caught him flush in the ribs and Sanchez tried to bail out of the box immediately. With a runner on first, no outs in the 8th inning, it would have been awfully stupid for Boggs to retaliate at that time and, frankly, after Hughes went high and tight on Lynn's bunt attempt and stayed in the game, Boggs should not have been given the heave ho.

I have my issues with umpires but not on Friday night. I still think that Sanchez meant to knock Craig down and to send a message.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:18 am 
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Unfortunately, I think Sanchez reputation played a big part in why he was ejected.
On a good note, at the risk of jinxing the guy, Starling Marte is off to a fantastic start and the bullpen has been outstanding as well. I will be moe than happy to eat my words if this trend can keep going...


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 Post subject: Re: The Other Foot
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:57 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
The idea that because Martin quickly stepped in front of Craig proves that Sanchez intended to hit Craig is ridiculous. About as ridiculous as it is to suspend Sanchez.

I would expect Martin to react that way even if the beaning was a complete accident.


How many times have you seen Martin jump out between the hitter and the pitcher this year on a HBP before Craig was nailed? I've seen most of the games and its the first time that I've seen it happen. It was a volatile situation and Martin was savvy enough to recognize it right from the start.

I honestly haven't seen a hitter do anything but go to his base. Craig was thinking about going to the mound, IMO.

Quote:
As for Marte getting beaned twice, take another look at the two pitches and watch how little Marte moves in an effort to avoid getting struck. Issuing a warning to the teams does not equate to taking away the inside part of the plate for the pitcher. Marte has a tendency to dive into the pitch and, in both instances, it appears that Marte actually checked his swing early. Neither of the pitches had any indicia of being retaliatory. The that could've drawn some scrutiny was when Sanchez was plunked. That caught him flush in the ribs and Sanchez tried to bail out of the box immediately. With a runner on first, no outs in the 8th inning, it would have been awfully stupid for Boggs to retaliate at that time and, frankly, after Hughes went high and tight on Lynn's bunt attempt and stayed in the game, Boggs should not have been given the heave ho.

I have my issues with umpires but not on Friday night. I still think that Sanchez meant to knock Craig down and to send a message.

If the ump is going to exercise his own judgment to toss Sanchez, then exercise his own judgment as the Cards go on to hit three Pirates, what was the point of the warning? That's my question.

I have little doubt that Hughes' pitch to Lynn was intentional.

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