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 Post subject: Re: Meek throwing heat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Depends. Are you comparing to the bailout money, or the amount of potential pitchers to come from India?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Meek throwing heat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:28 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Meek and Hansen are similar in several respects. Both throw serious heat, with a devastating slider, but have trouble staying in the strike zone.

If these guys can just replicate their deliveries, they can predict where the ball will go. Their problems with control are related in large part to the fact that they change their arm angle just a touch on delivery, or stride just a few inches short or long. These very minor inconsistencies pull the ball outside, or cause it to run too far inside, etc.

And these issues can be corrected with a good pitching coach and some confidence by the pitchers in their instructors.


Bucfan, are you talking about, gasp, observations? Observations you've made in their deliveries? That is blasphemy. Stats tell the whole picture and the stats for these two pitches are not good.

Unlike you, Bucfan can actually describe his observations with a modicum of detail. He does not just go "Oh, I seen him do it!" and then assume everyone should believe him. He also does not flatly deny the significance of recorded results from the play on the field -- also known as statistical evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Meek throwing heat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:23 pm 
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Meek and Hansen are similar in several respects. Both throw serious heat, with a devastating slider, but have trouble staying in the strike zone.

If these guys can just replicate their deliveries, they can predict where the ball will go. Their problems with control are related in large part to the fact that they change their arm angle just a touch on delivery, or stride just a few inches short or long. These very minor inconsistencies pull the ball outside, or cause it to run too far inside, etc.

And these issues can be corrected with a good pitching coach and some confidence by the pitchers in their instructors.


Bucfan, are you talking about, gasp, observations? Observations you've made in their deliveries? That is blasphemy. Stats tell the whole picture and the stats for these two pitches are not good.

Unlike you, Bucfan can actually describe his observations with a modicum of detail. He does not just go "Oh, I seen him do it!" and then assume everyone should believe him. He also does not flatly deny the significance of recorded results from the play on the field -- also known as statistical evidence.


OK Straw Man, I've never flatly denied the importance of statistical evidence. To suggest I've said that is a flat out lie. I've always said that to see the complete picture, you need to consider both stats and observation. I've said things like "stats aren't everything" because they're not.

Unlike you, Bucfan doesn't flatly deny the significance of observing the play on the field.


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 Post subject: Re: Meek throwing heat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:01 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
OK Straw Man, I've never flatly denied the importance of statistical evidence. To suggest I've said that is a flat out lie. I've always said that to see the complete picture, you need to consider both stats and observation. I've said things like "stats aren't everything" because they're not.

Yes, you have said that, and then you usually follow it with something that completely ignores or diminishes the value of the statistics pertinent to the matter. If the objective stats refute whatever subjective observations you've made, your immediate response is to say that the stats are wrong. It's a form of denying the evidence, which in this case lacks reason.

Elmer wrote:
Unlike you, Bucfan doesn't flatly deny the significance of observing the play on the field.

I find that the observations of one with a trained eye are very valuable. What I won't do is presume that the observations are correct when the statistics refute their findings. Statistics are objective; observations are subjective. The former is a factual record of the results from the field; the latter is recollection of events told through the lens of one person's perspective. Guess which is more believable?

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 Post subject: Re: Meek throwing heat
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:07 pm 
Strawman.


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 Post subject: Re: Meek throwing heat
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:17 pm 
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Stats can most definately be subjective. Even moreso than observation since the parameters of the assessment are subjectively defined by the observer.

You can find that in James' books if you like. Or, and basic study of stats.

ZM

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