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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:56 am 
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Kingston wrote:
Hmmm. Dont forget the lying part, which you did.

You made your point, Kingston. Give it a rest -- you're becoming as bad as he is.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:01 am 
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Willton wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Hmmm. Dont forget the lying part, which you did.

You made your point, Kingston. Give it a rest -- you're becoming as bad as he is.


LOL. I was thinking the same thing myself. Im done. Thanks for the tough love :)


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:54 am 
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Might I suggest we create a special forum for Pissing & Moaning About Pirate Ownership so that those of us who know something about the game of baseball can actually discuss it without having to wade through all this tedious, tinfoil-hatted crap?

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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:13 am 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Might I suggest we create a special forum for Pissing & Moaning About Pirate Ownership so that those of us who know something about the game of baseball can actually discuss it without having to wade through all this tedious, tinfoil-hatted crap?


Couldn't agree more. But there are dozens of forums for that throughout the www. But, Slaphead, just remember that these trolls only come out a couple times a year...the trading deadline, any time trades are made during the offseason, and occasionally the draft (assuming they are smart enough to know when the draft is). As I said before, if they had their way, we would never trade our veterans, and we would have sat through a 100 loss season led by Benson, Wells, Kendall, Giles, and Sean Friggin Casey. But hey, payroll would have been $80 mil. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:22 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Might I suggest we create a special forum for Pissing & Moaning About Pirate Ownership so that those of us who know something about the game of baseball can actually discuss it without having to wade through all this tedious, tinfoil-hatted crap?


Tinfoil hats? The Pirates new promotion night...so the government cant read your brain waves...


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:32 pm 
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Gosh, I hope that's not a picture of you nad. But I do like the idea of a foil hat bobblehead.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Call me a "fair weather fan" if you will. I'll keep my tshirts, hats, jackets, all of that, and I will still root for them when I take the time to watch them on TV. But, I'm not going to the games, or spending any more emotional capital or currency on them. I'll watch them out of the corner of my eye, and hope they are right and I am wrong.

But, I'm sick of it. They've got to earn me back. Talk is cheap. Results talk, BS walks. Let's see it.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:06 pm 
garzalny wrote:
Name calling and attacking. All against your rules. When you lose an argument, you resort to name calling and attacks. How childish. Are you 13 or something close to that? What a way to make new posters feel welcome. Thanks.


You're learning quick. The double-standards on this board are many.

Here's a couple rules to keep in mind.

- Profanity is banned, unless it is directed against unpopular posters such as me and bullishhitter.

- Personal attacks are not allowed, unless given by a popular poster.

- Racist comments are forbidden, unless they are about Indian players.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:42 pm 
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*applause*


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:05 am 
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C'mon Elmer...

Let it go. You and I disagree on many things but we are still the best of friends aren't we?

This is not singling out Elmer, this is towards the rest of the guys who feel slighted. Elmer and I have been able to disagree and still keep a good posting relationship.

The charge: The idea that we don't want to hear any differencing opinions than that of the "apologists" is a bit overblown. The primary argument that we ALL have problems with is the baseless attacks on Nutting. We are sick of hearing how the guy is "trying to turn a profit." Be honest with yourselves, so would you. This argument has run its course, started by Bullishitter and continued by Bullishitter, and never freakin let go by Bullishitter. BH never provides solid foundation for his argument nor a viable solution and he gets dinged for that, and the guys that feed into that argument get same treatment.

Sure you can have your opinion, but if your opinion becomes accusatory, then back it up. If you are not satisfied with the way NH and FC are doing something, then provide a viable solution that you think will work, but be prepared to defend that position.

Don't leave the site because people disagree with you. I know in my situation, I am on the wrong side of the Jack Wilson debate, I have grown tired of defending Jack and have taken quite a beating over the years because of it. I still don't want to see Jack go, I like him and I believe he is just fine starting everyday for the Pirates, and I don't give a rats arse about what Dodgers fans or Tigers fans think about him.

Moral of the story: Your feelings are going to get hurt because not everyone agrees with what you say or think, if you leave, then who is being the baby? Everyone here is frustrated with the Pirates losing, don't take our positive attitude towards the current management as though we are happy with mediocrity. We just find little sense in reveling in the past, who cares what so and so did 5 years ago, its over, we need to press forward. Again, be honest with yourselves, are you really giving FC and NH the benefit of the doubt when it comes to trying to repair 10 or more years of organizational destruction. Nobody is perfect, FC and NH are going to make mistakes, the difference with these guys is the fact that they own up to them. I am just so sick of seeing posters blaming ownership for the failures of the club. You have to remember, ownership are not "baseball people," they have to listen to the "baseball guys" that they hired for what is best for the team. The only failure I see that the ownership is responsible for is the hiring of guys like Cam Bonifay and David Littlefield. Because those guys did not steer this organization in the right direction. I applaud Nutting for forcing McClatchy out and cleaning house. That is what you guys should focus on because in 5-10 years, we are going to be discussing this time as the turning point for this organization. Mark my words.

Last note: Elmer, I'm glad that you decide to stay because we DO NEED differencing opinions or there would be very little discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:41 am 
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Piratefan13

Elmer has a point. This board has double standards. I have also told him if he does not like it to leave. I have been cussed at and called about every vulgar name there is. One one the Mods still has not made good on his word on a wager he lost. Real character guys eh? Thats OK my viewpoints hits an emotional nerve. Fans pour their heart & soul to cheer their team on. And as I have stated many times, I dont cheer for another baseball team. The ownership has ripped the heart & soul out of the fans...hope is gone.
So you and others think Bob Nutting and company are changing the team into a winner. Now ask yourself this, did you not think the same thing each time a new GM or manager was hired? McClatchy did not have enough money to buy the Pirates. The Nutting family(old newspaper ties)have been owners since 96. The team has always and continues to have one of the lowest payrolls. The pattern remains the same...when a decent player is due to make alot of money, they are traded away. The ownership plan has stayed in tact...keep payroll low, make that 15-20 million dollar profit, market this team with promotions like most minor league teams and laugh all the way to the bank. Good for them. It works. Like the first poster said, he is sick of it...has been told the same old thing over the years and has had it. That was me after 2001.
Ownership says they want to win and preach accountability. When are you(& others) going to make ownership accountable? You wont, you cant, you dont know how. Face it no matter who owned the Pirates, you would stand behind them all the way. You'll be watching every little move...and for what...just to watch the longest ongoing losing streak of all time for a major pro sports team.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:07 pm 
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BH,
You have to admit, you enjoy getting under the skin of many posters here. Sometimes you do it on purpose. Thats what I can't stand. I have tried to debate with you in the past and had given you every benefit. It just became worthless to argue with you because you refused to listen to reason. As I said before, I would give your argument credence if you could provide concrete evidence that Nutting is not interested in winning(as you have clearly stated). Until then, your argument is based soley on your opinion, whereas I am using actions as of late(things like the Dominican rehabilitaion) as basis for my argument that Nutting IS interested in winning and he has taken large steps to propell us in that direction.

To answer your question, I did feel at the beginning of each tenure that things were going to change, and after a few years when things had either not changed or had took a turn for the worse, I turned my anger and frustration on the Front Office. You and many others aren't even giving Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington a chance at all. THAT is why your argument gets so much flak.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:11 pm 
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Might I suggest we create a special forum for Pissing & Moaning About Pirate Ownership so that those of us who know something about the game of baseball can actually discuss it without having to wade through all this tedious, tinfoil-hatted crap?




By creating this forum, would you suggest that complaining about ownership never enters into actual baseball discussion? By suggesting that, you're kind of saying Pirates ownership will never do something worthy of criticism???


Last edited by Elmer on Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:13 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
C'mon Elmer...

Let it go. You and I disagree on many things but we are still the best of friends aren't we?

This is not singling out Elmer, this is towards the rest of the guys who feel slighted. Elmer and I have been able to disagree and still keep a good posting relationship.

The charge: The idea that we don't want to hear any differencing opinions than that of the "apologists" is a bit overblown. The primary argument that we ALL have problems with is the baseless attacks on Nutting. We are sick of hearing how the guy is "trying to turn a profit." Be honest with yourselves, so would you. This argument has run its course, started by Bullishitter and continued by Bullishitter, and never freakin let go by Bullishitter. BH never provides solid foundation for his argument nor a viable solution and he gets dinged for that, and the guys that feed into that argument get same treatment.

Sure you can have your opinion, but if your opinion becomes accusatory, then back it up. If you are not satisfied with the way NH and FC are doing something, then provide a viable solution that you think will work, but be prepared to defend that position.

Don't leave the site because people disagree with you. I know in my situation, I am on the wrong side of the Jack Wilson debate, I have grown tired of defending Jack and have taken quite a beating over the years because of it. I still don't want to see Jack go, I like him and I believe he is just fine starting everyday for the Pirates, and I don't give a rats arse about what Dodgers fans or Tigers fans think about him.

Moral of the story: Your feelings are going to get hurt because not everyone agrees with what you say or think, if you leave, then who is being the baby? Everyone here is frustrated with the Pirates losing, don't take our positive attitude towards the current management as though we are happy with mediocrity. We just find little sense in reveling in the past, who cares what so and so did 5 years ago, its over, we need to press forward. Again, be honest with yourselves, are you really giving FC and NH the benefit of the doubt when it comes to trying to repair 10 or more years of organizational destruction. Nobody is perfect, FC and NH are going to make mistakes, the difference with these guys is the fact that they own up to them. I am just so sick of seeing posters blaming ownership for the failures of the club. You have to remember, ownership are not "baseball people," they have to listen to the "baseball guys" that they hired for what is best for the team. The only failure I see that the ownership is responsible for is the hiring of guys like Cam Bonifay and David Littlefield. Because those guys did not steer this organization in the right direction. I applaud Nutting for forcing McClatchy out and cleaning house. That is what you guys should focus on because in 5-10 years, we are going to be discussing this time as the turning point for this organization. Mark my words.

Last note: Elmer, I'm glad that you decide to stay because we DO NEED differencing opinions or there would be very little discussion.


Yes, Piratefan13, we do disagree and are able to have some good discussions. In fact, discussions with posters like you are why I come here. It's fun and enjoyable.

That doesn't excuse double standards on the part of MODS, or even failure to answer questions about what, exactly, the rules on personal attacks and vulgarity are.

I've said many times that I don't care about being attacked. My feelings don't get hurt, you can trust me on that. Comments from Wilton, for example, have zero negative impact on my life. In fact, I find his hypocrisy humorous.

What I do not like is the fact that I'm attacked, but when I've attacked myself in the past, I've been warned by the mods to stop, or I'll be banned. So apparently I'm supposed to just let others take personal shots at me, but I have to watch how I respond to anything or I'll be banned? Then when I ask what the rules are, so I know where the line is when I respond, I get no answer? It's the principle that bothers me, not the attacks themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
BH,
You have to admit, you enjoy getting under the skin of many posters here. Sometimes you do it on purpose. Thats what I can't stand. .... As I said before, I would give your argument credence if you could provide concrete evidence that Nutting is not interested in winning(as you have clearly stated). Until then, your argument is based soley on your opinion, whereas I am using actions as of late(things like the Dominican rehabilitaion) as basis for my argument that Nutting IS interested in winning and he has taken large steps to propell us in that direction.

To answer your question, I did feel at the beginning of each tenure that things were going to change, and after a few years when things had either not changed or had took a turn for the worse, I turned my anger and frustration on the Front Office. You and many others aren't even giving Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington a chance at all. THAT is why your argument gets so much flak.


I wish I could be posting on a Pirate form about how the Pirates are contending and all of the things involved in following your favorite baseball team. But that's been long gone. Pirate ownership wants to win...sure they do...but only on their low low payroll budget and not risking that fat profit. Winning is not their priority and that is done on purpose...those actions are clearly repeated. Bob Nutting may not have been the top man in this organization, but his family and money have been a major influence since 96. You've heard the same old BS and lip service so until the actions change on the field, their words mean zilch. Thats my proof and until the team wins... I'm right
If I have got under anyones skin it is only because they have let my comments bother them and they dont have thick skin. Are you one of those people? What you cant stand is that you know you should make Pirate ownership accountable by being indifferent, you just cant. Just like Lucy holds the football for Charlie Brown to kick, he knows better but he keeps falling on his back
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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:43 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Might I suggest we create a special forum for Pissing & Moaning About Pirate Ownership so that those of us who know something about the game of baseball can actually discuss it without having to wade through all this tedious, tinfoil-hatted crap?




By creating this forum, would you suggest that complaining about ownership never enters into actual baseball discussion? By suggesting that, you're kind of saying Pirates ownership will never do something worthy of criticism???

Interesting leap of logic, Elmer. Tell me, does your strawman have a name?

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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:01 pm 
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Elmer wrote:
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Might I suggest we create a special forum for Pissing & Moaning About Pirate Ownership so that those of us who know something about the game of baseball can actually discuss it without having to wade through all this tedious, tinfoil-hatted crap?




By creating this forum, would you suggest that complaining about ownership never enters into actual baseball discussion? By suggesting that, you're kind of saying Pirates ownership will never do something worthy of criticism???

Interesting leap of logic, Elmer. Tell me, does your strawman have a name?


It's an legit question, LtCol. Would you want ALL complaining about management on this forum? So if they make a horrible trade, you wouldn't be allowed to bring this up in the "regular" baseball forum? I'm just trying to envision how this plan would work.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:40 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
It's an legit question, LtCol. Would you want ALL complaining about management on this forum? So if they make a horrible trade, you wouldn't be allowed to bring this up in the "regular" baseball forum? I'm just trying to envision how this plan would work.

Eh. Ideally they would all be sent to a gulag where they would spend the rest of their days whittling Ogden Nutting bobbleheads from petrified wood using butter knives.

Like any modest (and tongue-in-cheek) proposal, my idea has it's flaws, but it would eliminate 90% of the blatant trolling that takes place here.

Would you deny that a handful of posters visit this site solely to spew anti-ownership invective? Moreover, are you so intellectually dishonest to believe that those who don't cotton to the presence of these polemicists are, by nature of their objections, pro-ownership? (I'll grant you benefit of the doubt that you can differentiate between ownership [re-read my original post] and management.)

The continued whining about double standards and unfair treatment (charges that are pure conjecture by the way, unless you've somehow found access to people's private messages) is completely repudiated by the fact BH and a few others are allowed to troll and generally create a hostile environment on this site with impunity. If anything, you should be thankful that the mods here are far greater ambassadors of tolerance and free speech than I would be in their position.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:03 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Eh. Ideally they would all be sent to a gulag where they would spend the rest of their days whittling Ogden Nutting bobbleheads from petrified wood using butter knives.


Now THAT'S funny!! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:21 pm 
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Eh. Ideally they would all be sent to a gulag where they would spend the rest of their days whittling Ogden Nutting bobbleheads from petrified wood using butter knives.

Ha, That's funny.

LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Like any modest (and tongue-in-cheek) proposal, my idea has it's flaws, but it would eliminate 90% of the blatant trolling that takes place here.

Yeah, it would eliminate blatant trolling. It would also prevent criticism of management or ownership when it deserves. I'd rather read/ignore trolling than have a board that is insulated from all points of view. Just my preference I guess.


LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Would you deny that a handful of posters visit this site solely to spew anti-ownership invective?


No, I don't deny that. There are trolls on every forum I've ever been to. Would you deny that some on this board view the Pirates with rose colored galsses, pick the times they are objective, and treat reasonable arguments with contempt or disrespect?



LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Moreover, are you so intellectually dishonest to believe that those who don't cotton to the presence of these polemicists are, by nature of their objections, pro-ownership? (I'll grant you benefit of the doubt that you can differentiate between ownership [re-read my original post] and management.)


I think that someone who objectively evaluates ownership or management, then praises when deserved and criticizes when deserved is not "pro ownership" but, rather, an honest fan. I think that those who defend every move made by ownership, or every move made by management, and then don't even tip the hat to the legitimate points of those who criticize ownership or management have the credibility of a Bob Smizik.

LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
The continued whining about double standards and unfair treatment (charges that are pure conjecture by the way, unless you've somehow found access to people's private messages) is completely repudiated by the fact BH and a few others are allowed to troll and generally create a hostile environment on this site with impunity. If anything, you should be thankful that the mods here are far greater ambassadors of tolerance and free speech than I would be in their position.


The charges arent' conjecture if personal attacks continue to go on. I don't know if the posters who are vulgar and person with the likes of BH get PMd, but that's irrelevant if the attacks/vulgarity are allowed to continue.


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