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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:03 pm 
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You , on the other hand, fail to learn from experience and that makes me very sad. Please take comfort though, in the fact that Bob Nutting really appreciates your inability to learn from experience and would like to make you a special package deal on all of the fireworks and bobblehead nights this year!!! He tells me that he'll be looking forward to seeing you at PirateFest this year!!


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:07 pm 
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If McLatchey and Littlefield were still running things your "learn from experience" argument would carry far more weight with me.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:10 pm 
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BTW...if the Nuttings somehow determined that they could make a bunch more money...and make it more eaily because that's a factor too....by actually building a team to win the World Series, I'm sure he woulsd attempt to do it. His analysis of the situation evidently indicates that the probability of actually being able to do that and the risk of spending the money and NOT winning it are so great that he's not willing to risk the money to do so. I pretty sure of that because Bob knows how to make money and more imporatantly, he knows how to avoid losing it.

I never said he wasn't a good businessman. I just maintain that he doesn't care about what the fans want at all. I'll stick to that opinion. However, if it ever becomes easier to make money by winning championships than to not bother trying, he'll do that in a heartbeat.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:11 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
If McLatchey and Littlefield were still running things your "learn from experience" argument would carry far more weight with me.


THE SAME PEOPLE OWN THE TEAM!!!

Whoever owns the team tells whoever runs the team what they want to be done....are you children that you don't understand that?


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:13 pm 
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garzalny wrote:
BTW...if the Nuttings somehow determined that they could make a bunch more money...and make it more eaily because that's a factor too....by actually building a team to win the World Series, I'm sure he woulsd attempt to do it. His analysis of the situation evidently indicates that the probability of actually being able to do that and the risk of spending the money and NOT winning it are so great that he's not willing to risk the money to do so.
.


Im fairly certain that even you understand this to be no more than a biased guess.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:18 pm 
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It's just an educated guess based on their behavior for the past 10 years.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:22 pm 
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garzalny wrote:
Kingston wrote:
If McLatchey and Littlefield were still running things your "learn from experience" argument would carry far more weight with me.


THE SAME PEOPLE OWN THE TEAM!!!

Whoever owns the team tells whoever runs the team what they want to be done....are you children that you don't understand that?


And why do you find it so hard to understand that ownership will entrust the running of day to day operations to a management group and when its determined that group is underperforming and imperiling future business success then changes are made. Thats the situation here. Maybe Nutting did sit back passively and let the profits roll in without taking appropriate action, satisfied with the black ink. Ill concede that possibility. But at some point he looked at the situation, realized the steady embarrassment of being a laughingstock threatened his business, and went about finding a way to secure his business by constructing a management team and strategy that will allow him to offer the consumer a marketable product while maintaining profits.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:42 pm 
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What I want to know is, what happens when we DO win a WS? Are all these guys going to be saying, "I stuck with them through thick and thin... blah blah blah..." This argument is completely old hat. Through many threads we have already determined:

1. Nutting took over day to day operations in early 2007.
2. Nutting has already promised to shell out the cash when there is core team that competing
3. Purchasing over the hill FA's is NOT the way to build a contendor
4. SPending $25 Million dollars on a pitcher that can't perform in the big game(Sabathia) is a waste of our resources
5. FC and NH are finally turning the corner after spending all of last year trying to fix the DL mistakes
6. We ahve lost 15 straight years, whats another year anyway? If we can establish a sound professional ballclub from ML all the way down to the Dominican league.
7. I want to compete regularly, not win 85-90 games with some high payroll for one year just to say we "competed"
8. If you have been a fan for 50, shame on you for abandoning them now after they've given you some fantastic baseball with HOF players and 3 WS titles. Ask the Indians how many they have, or how about the Mariners, the Cubs, the Brewers, etc.
9. Everyone needs to take a freakin chill pill about Nutting, unless you are looking at the financial books, you are only specualting, which means diddly poo

On and on it goes...


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:13 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
What I want to know is, what happens when we DO win a WS? Are all these guys going to be saying, "I stuck with them through thick and thin... blah blah blah..." This argument is completely old hat. Through many threads we have already determined:

1. Nutting took over day to day operations in early 2007.
His family controlled this team since 1999 and presided over all of the shenanigans you're complaining about.
2. Nutting has already promised to shell out the cash when there is core team that competing
He will never admit that this is ocurring until they are certain of winning a championship, which under the conditions he will fund, will never occur.

3. Purchasing over the hill FA's is NOT the way to build a contendor
Agreed.

4. SPending $25 Million dollars on a pitcher that can't perform in the big game(Sabathia) is a waste of our resources
We will never get to a "big game" until we have guys who can even get you to the big game....let alone win that big game. You have to have guys who can win through a 162 gmae season first and he won't pay to get those guys until we are already there...which means we have to home-grow those guys which means you have to have admin folks who can really evaluate and develop talent...which we don't.

5. FC and NH are finally turning the corner after spending all of last year trying to fix the DL mistakes.
How do you know and when will you know when they are turning this subjectibve, hypothetical corner. They lost even more games last year than the year before. What's the objective measurement criteria?

6. We ahve lost 15 straight years, whats another year anyway? If we can establish a sound professional ballclub from ML all the way down to the Dominican league.
When you keep accepting losing, you can expect to lose....for sure.

7. I want to compete regularly, not win 85-90 games with some high payroll for one year just to say we "competed"
You have to walk before you run....see the Penguins for advice on this.

8. If you have been a fan for 50, shame on you for abandoning them now after they've given you some fantastic baseball with HOF players and 3 WS titles. Ask the Indians how many they have, or how about the Mariners, the Cubs, the Brewers, etc.
Shame on the ownership for only caring about profits and not how the poor fans who put money in their coffers and spin the turnstiles feel about being treated with relative abandon. If they don't know how to run a club and make it competitive, find people who can and don't wait 10 years to wake up when 90% of the fans have given up hope and don't even care anymore. Then you stop even marketing baseball as baseball because you won't invest in baseball and market fireworks, bobbleheads and washed-up rock acts to keep a minimum of people coming to the games....and not even for the game.

9. Everyone needs to take a freakin chill pill about Nutting, unless you are looking at the financial books, you are only specualting, which means diddly poo
READ....the Pirates were the 3rd most profitable MLB club last year and spent what you call diddly on the product put on the field.

On and on it goes...

I wouldn't even be writing on this forum if I didn't care. The problem is that I care too much...more than the people who own and run the team do.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:24 pm 
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Okay, we're getting to the point now with the size of these posts where Im gonna wait for the Cliffs Notes :D

Anyway, I think my position is clear.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:27 pm 
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The Nuttings will be glad to sell you the Cliff Notes version if they think there's a profit in doing so.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:30 pm 
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garzalny wrote:
The Nuttings will be glad to sell you the Cliff Notes version if they think there's a profit in doing so.


Im sure they will. By the way, can you offer any evidence the Nuttings have had controlling interest in the team since 1999?


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:37 pm 
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Please read...it really helps add credibility to posting. They have had controlling interest in this team since at least 1999.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:39 pm 
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garzalny wrote:
Please read...it really helps add credibility to posting. They have had controlling interest in this team since at least 1999.


That is totally incorrect. Show me a link.

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The Bucs are going all the way, all the way this year!


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:40 pm 
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garzalny wrote:
Please read...it really helps add credibility to posting. They have had controlling interest in this team since at least 1999.


Again, Id like you to offer evidence of that.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:45 pm 
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From the Bucs site:


Robert (Bob) Nutting serves as Chairman of the Board of the Pittsburgh Pirates. Bob assumed control of the club in January of 2007, thus becoming the sixth principal owner in the history of the Pittsburgh Pirates. He has served as Chairman of the Board and represented his family's interest in the club since 2003.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:47 pm 
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http://books.google.com/books?id=1VwOLI ... #PPA476,M1

In 1997, several of the partners divested themselves in the partnerships and the Nuttings bought more of the shares and became the largest shareholders.....so it was earlier than 1999.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:48 pm 
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Nutting has only been the Chairman since 2003 but they were the majority shareholders since 1997.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:52 pm 
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garzalny wrote:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1VwOLIVOWvwC&pg=PA476&lpg=PA476&dq=mcclatchy+buys+pirates+partners&source=web&ots=qi03xbhwjr&sig=6vUCwP-ld4sD1-cfMYd4jf0hI7E&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA476,M1

In 1997, several of the partners divested themselves in the partnerships and the Nuttings bought more of the shares and became the largest shareholders.....so it was earlier than 1999.


Uh, it doesnt say that anywhere in there.


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 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:53 pm 
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You must have poor reading habits....or comprehension issues. I quoted it nearly verbatim.


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