Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:24 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:53 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:43 pm
Posts: 273
On another thread, Kinston and I have been sort of going round about my feelings regarding the Bucs. I have been referred to as the "quintesential fair weather" fan due to my doubts regarding the wisdom of their futuristic ideas.

Well, I have been a die hard Pirate fan for 50+ years. I've got it all, hats, jackets, t-shirts, countless ticket stubs, programs.....all of it. I have been emotionally tied to this team for over five decades.

At the beginning of last year, I was more pumped than I had been for a long time. The pitching looked good, and they had power and fielding. They had three veterans in particular, Bay, Nady, and Wilson, who appeared to have power and adequate fielding. Even more important, (and perhaps I am from a generation that believes this is important), they were excellent role models for young people, the kind that you want your kids and grandkids to identify with. They had some vets, Menky and Michaels in particular, who seemed like they might contribute. Things looked interesting.

So, in the first half, although the pitching took a dump, the offense and fielding kept them in games. Although not leading the pack, they were competitive and entertaining, and fun to watch. They owned the Astros and the Reds, and played better than .500 with the Cards. They were doing OK, not setting the world on fire, but doing OK. I, along with many others, figured if they could just build on their foundation, namely Bay, Nady, Wilson, Doumit and some others, shore up their pitching, they might just surprise some folks.

Their solution to this was the same as it always has been. They trade Bay and Nady for a bunch of never have beens, although admittedly younger never have beens. The pitching certainly didn't improve, the power went non-existent, and, just like before they shot directly to the cellar. So, the net proceeds of this trade were to turn a fairly decent ball club into a pathetic one. Great. Just be patient, they say, this time "it's different". Not like all the other times in the last decade and a half, this time it's different. Right. Different. Look out year 2012, here we come.

So now when I voice my displeasure on trading Wilson, a great role model who wants to stay here, and arguably one of the better shortstops in major league baseball, to someone else for some more younger never have beens, I am accused of being a "fair weather fan" and not giving this franchise "a chance", because this time "it's different". After all, they just went the whole way to India to sign some ex cricket players, and they now have this slam bang right fielder in Altoona who has a problem getting along with teamates, and is on a first name basis with some of the cops in cities where he played, so this time must be "different". He came in the Nady trade. Some deal.

Look, I don't care how much money Nutting has. More power to him, I won't begrudge anyone's personal success. But the time for talk is past. I don't want to hear this "it's different" stuff anymore. Let's see some results. If you can do it on the cheap, bully for you. If you've got to spend some money, do it. But, let's see it.

What I see this year is this: We'll get rid of one of the last mainstays and role models on this team (Jack Wilson) for some more "maybe some day" guys, rather than build around him and go from there. This way, they can stink right from the beginning of the year, rather than wait until the mid season moves. Menky wants out. Michaels wants out. The only guy who doesn't want out is Wilson, and I admire him for that (although sometimes wonder about his wisdom).

Call me a "fair weather fan" if you will. I'll keep my tshirts, hats, jackets, all of that, and I will still root for them when I take the time to watch them on TV. But, I'm not going to the games, or spending any more emotional capital or currency on them. I'll watch them out of the corner of my eye, and hope they are right and I am wrong.

But, I'm sick of it. They've got to earn me back. Talk is cheap. Results talk, BS walks. Let's see it.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:11 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:46 am
Posts: 429
Location: Rural Ridge, PA
You want to build a team around a guy who will not be here after next season anyway? You want to let these guys walk as free agents without getting anything for them? No thanks. Simply put, we would have lost with these guys or without them, because this team had hardly any good starting pitching. You might as well plan ahead. Even if rebuilding doesn't work, you didnt sacrifice anything.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:27 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:22 pm
Posts: 2495
Steve1118 wrote:
But, I'm sick of it. They've got to earn me back. Talk is cheap. Results talk, BS walks. Let's see it.


After 15 straight years of ineptitude, I think you have every right to feel this way. I don't begrudge your animosity at all. However, we'll have to disagree (in a gentlemanly manner) on how best to remedy the situation. But since there are numerous posts as to what constitutes the "right" way, I'll leave my response to this one short.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:22 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:28 pm
Posts: 1361
Steve....I understand your frustration...I really do. I have been a fan for about as long as you, judging from your comments you are about my age (53 this month!).

The difference may be in how we choose to channel that frustration. In order for me to keep any interest at all, I have to hold out hope and trust that this management team will get it right....I don't give them a blank check, but I think there is evidence that they are not the same inept idiots that ran this thing in the ground to start with. Your frustration seems to be manifest in disdain for the past and present state of affairs. That is probably a more pragmatic, practical and logical view, but I can't do it and remain a fan. I wouldn't call you a fair-weather fan anymore than some of the guys who have left this board over the years because they had enough.

But, as Argentum alluded to, we have different ideas about how to run this team. I don't think your way is sustainable in today's system. We have to run our team like Minnesota and Tampa Bay and Oakland...we can't run it like the Yankees or Red Sox.

A good argument could probably have been made for keeping Bay...he fit the mold of player we should be looking to keep. But Nady is another matter...we traded him at his maximum value and we would have lost him to free agency and got nothing. It would make more sense now to keep Wilson if we hadn't traded Bay, but since we did, we are going nowhere with Wilson or without. Yes, it will be very hard to watch this year, but it might be fun by August and September as we start to see glimpses of what this team will look like in a year or two.

Anyway, the fact that you are here venting tells me you want this team to succeed and it won't take as much to win you back as you might think.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:39 am
Posts: 60
It's really all about the ownership, not who they've hired recently. This ownership group has done zero to inspire any kind of confidence of the fans. While I agree that this team needs to be be run simlarly to Minnesota and TB and the like....and NOT the Yankees....I also understand that with their revenue stream, there is absolutely no excuse for not having payroll set a a number simliar to other same-size markets. The Pirates' ownership chooses to do absolutely everything on the cheap and markets the team in such a way that actual baseball is not the real item of interest. Please don't tout re-doing the facility in the Dominican as an example of ownership interest as the facility was deplorable and laughable. Please don't talk of drafting Pedro as that was a total no-brainer and ownership would have been run out of town with another Moskos incident. The ONLY thing that can be pointed out as positive so far is that they went over slot for 3 or 4 lower round guys in the draft last year to entice them into pro careers with Pittsburgh. That is the only non-typical thing this ownership group has done so far.

I have some hope. Not much. I'm in the "show me" camp. Skeptical but hopeful. The problem is that my "fanhood" is so genetically ingrained for the Pirates that I can't help myself. It's the only thing that has kept me going as a fan for the last five years.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:48 am
Posts: 391
garzalny wrote:
. Skeptical but hopeful. The problem is that my "fanhood" is so genetically ingrained for the Pirates that I can't help myself. It's the only thing that has kept me going as a fan for the last five years.


Same here. I suppose you're supposed to have the patience of a saint or else you're a fair weather fan.

_________________
"What other businesses do you expect to lose money for your entertainment?"-- UPPMB


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:05 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 637

I'll keep my tshirts, hats, jackets, all of that, and I will still root for them when I take the time to watch them on TV. But, I'm not going to the games, or spending any more emotional capital or currency on them. I'll watch them out of the corner of my eye, and hope they are right and I am wrong.

But, I'm sick of it. They've got to earn me back. Talk is cheap. Results talk, BS walks. Let's see it.


Look, Im sorry if this is a touchy issue, but who's kidding who? Once, you may well have been the greatest Pirate fan of all time. But the comments above, your comments, define you. Im not saying you dont have justification or that the team didnt drive you to it. But your relationship to this team has clearly changed, your commitment to it conditional . Maybe one day, when the clouds subside and the sun shines over PNC, youll renew your commitment. Again, sorry, but theres a term for that.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:02 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:39 am
Posts: 60
Is this a contest over who's the biggest or best fan? Gee Whiz guys....do I have a shot?

He has a right to be any kind of fan he wishes to be and you have zero right to criticize that....

The things you are saying amount to nothing but a personal attack....just saying.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:09 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 637
garzalny wrote:
Is this a contest over who's the biggest or best fan? Gee Whiz guys....do I have a shot?

He has a right to be any kind of fan he wishes to be and you have zero right to criticize that....

The things you are saying amount to nothing but a personal attack....just saying.


He CAN be any sort of fan he wishes to be. And I have every right to characterize it, especially here on a thread HE started where HE addresses the issue of the sort of fan he is.

Its not a contest, and its a point I dont speak on capriciously. The greater point, as I see it, is that the sort of cynicism that drives a lifelong fan to apathy can cloud objective judgement over what the Bucs are currently trying to accomplish and the means chosen.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:20 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:43 pm
Posts: 273
Kingston, you have the right to be the fan you are, as well. A mindless sheep that buys the Company line every time....."this time it's different". You know, the kind that can't think or see for himself, but takes everything the Bucco brass states as gospel.....they say it, so it must be true. I have no doubt you swallowed that with Bonafay and Littlefield, too. It was "different", then. I am sure that you pored over each scouting report that you could read, too, identifying the young "studs" that will put the Buccos over the top. And, I am also sure that you bought the Company line as to why "this time they didn't work out". I am sure that you bought the excuse each time one of their stars were traded for future "prospects". I am sure you understand why the parade of ex Pirates who went on to be big talents for someone else couldn't make it in Pittsburgh, as it was "different" then.

You know what, though? I hope you are right. I truly hope that this time, it really is "different".

But, I will have to see it to believe it. Don't just tell me anymore. Show me. I've heard enough excuses, had a bellyfull of the bs. They've got to win me back. And, judging by the attendance, I would think that there are more "fair weather" fans like me than mindless masses such as yourself.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:54 pm
Posts: 6208
Location: Keystone State
garzalny wrote:
It's really all about the ownership, not who they've hired recently. This ownership group has done zero to inspire any kind of confidence of the fans.


While I understand your doubt in ownership and agree to a point, I do disagree with two things.

The ownership group has done zero. What do you call the Dominican Academy they just invested all that money into? I would say that's a positive.

And before you say they let it get that way, Bob Nutting has only been running this team for three years. Kevin McClatchy was the real villain when you talk about poor ownership decisions.

I understand what side you are on, but I think the statement above makes you appear not open to them getting better until they win a World Series.

_________________
The Bucs are going all the way, all the way this year!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:35 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 637
Steve1118 wrote:
Kingston, you have the right to be the fan you are, as well. A mindless sheep that buys the Company line every time....."this time it's different". You know, the kind that can't think or see for himself, but takes everything the Bucco brass states as gospel.....they say it, so it must be true. I have no doubt you swallowed that with Bonafay and Littlefield, too. It was "different", then. I am sure that you pored over each scouting report that you could read, too, identifying the young "studs" that will put the Buccos over the top. And, I am also sure that you bought the Company line as to why "this time they didn't work out".

You know what, though? I hope you are right. I truly hope that this time, it really is "different".

But, I will have to see it to believe it. Don't just tell me anymore. Show me.


No. When Bonifay was hired I had hope and held it til he proved he couldnt rise to the task. Same with Littlefield. I hoped Van Benschotten could pitch, or that Paulino could hit. All my optimism was based on best evidence at the time, tho like any fan those hopes came with the understanding there are no guarantees.

Id say that any time management initiates wholesale changes to correct a problem or improve the quality of the franchise, most fans have hope that this is the one that will take, especially if the plan makes sense. Theres nothing mindless about understanding the logic of a strategy thats been played out elsewhere around the league.

But again, youre simply telling me whats turned you into a fair weather fan, which is indisputable, based on your own comments.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:49 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:39 am
Posts: 60
And who was the majority owners when all of this happened? When your employees don't perform as required, isn't it your job to do something about it? How long have the Nuttings REALLY been in charge? I don't think much has changed up top except there has been a ton of pressure from some fan groups and the media to turn things around....at least on the surface anyway. That's why the previous folks were fired....and hired in the first place. Again...I don't pretend to know what's really going on here, but their track record sucks rocks.

The Dominican facility was a joke that they let go to hell in a handcart...on their watch. There was some negative publicity about it so they are doing something about it. It's also a place to find players on the cheap, something they should actually be in love with. Fixing that is no big plus on their resume as owners. People started walking out of games and giving them a black eye which caused more bad publicity, so they fired the people who most held responsible...but THEY hired the fools to begin with!

The Pirates are a punchline in the national media. They have to react to that to keep the value of the franchise up so they can make their money when they decide to sell. I hope it's soon. I don't believe that fans can trust this ownership group. It's up to them to prove otherwise as they've built up a huge legacy of failure and incompetence.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:58 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 637
garzalny wrote:
And who was the majority owners when all of this happened? When your employees don't perform as required, isn't it your job to do something about it? How long have the Nuttings REALLY been in charge? I don't think much has changed up top except there has been a ton of pressure from some fan groups and the media to turn things around....at least on the surface anyway. That's why the previous folks were fired....and hired in the first place. Again...I don't pretend to know what's really going on here, but their track record sucks rocks.

The Dominican facility was a joke that they let go to hell in a handcart...on their watch. There was some negative publicity about it so they are doing something about it. It's also a place to find players on the cheap, something they should actually be in love with. Fixing that is no big plus on their resume as owners. People started walking out of games and giving them a black eye which caused more bad publicity, so they fired the people who most held responsible...but THEY hired the fools to begin with!

The Pirates are a punchline in the national media. They have to react to that to keep the value of the franchise up so they can make their money when they decide to sell. I hope it's soon. I don't believe that fans can trust this ownership group. It's up to them to prove otherwise as they've built up a huge legacy of failure and incompetence.


So? Theyve attempted to correct all those things. You should be happy. Every Bucs fan knows that KM ran the day to day operations til last year. Perhaps the Nuttings should have unseated him sooner, but hes gone now. But this idea that things have been mishandled in the past so theres no chance at a turnaround now, thats based on emotion, not reason.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:08 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:39 am
Posts: 60
Exactly how long did they wait??? Oh I'm sorry....they were too busy counting the money to see that the team they bought had become the biggest joke in pro sports SINCE they bought it. Nice try there guy, but thet were very aware of what was occurring. They were still making boatloads of money, so they didn't care. The only thing that spurred change was the negative publicity and the effect that was having on the possible value of the franchise.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:16 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 637
garzalny wrote:
Exactly how long did they wait??? Oh I'm sorry....they were too busy counting the money to see that the team they bought had become the biggest joke in pro sports SINCE they bought it. Nice try there guy, but thet were very aware of what was occurring. They were still making boatloads of money, so they didn't care. The only thing that spurred change was the negative publicity and the effect that was having on the possible value of the franchise.


How long did they wait? Really? Thats it? They gave McLatchey a little too much rope and because of that youre convinced theyre evil incarnate? Okay.

Me, I dont care what finally led to change. Change has happened, and Ive laid out plenty of reasons for optimism on 2 different threads. You wanna stay convinced our future is doomed, be my guest.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:25 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:39 am
Posts: 60
If you want to delude yourself into thinking that the Nuttings have the fans' best interest at hear, be MY guest. Come to the dark side Luke....I am your father.......


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:39 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 637
garzalny wrote:
If you want to delude yourself into thinking that the Nuttings have the fans' best interest at heart...


Well, I sure dont believe THAT. Lets not get carried away ;)


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:54 pm
Posts: 6208
Location: Keystone State
garzalny wrote:
And who was the majority owners when all of this happened?


The Nuttings have gradually become the majority owners over the past several years. McClatchy for years had the board of directors voting on his side (He had two votes, Nuttings had two and the rest were McClatchy's guys i.e. Ganassi etc. The shift probably happened around 2003 when they were having debt problems i.e. Ramirez trade. The Nuttings have been buying people out until they had the majority. Nutting took over for McClatchy in 2007.

I am not naive and know the Nuttings are notorious penny-pinchers. But it has been proven a million times that you don't need deep pockets to win in this league. You need the right people making the decisions.

McClatchy was the decision-maker and the problem. As much as the guy was great for keeping the Pirates in Pittsburgh and getting PNC Park built, he had no experience running a baseball team or a business for that matter.

_________________
The Bucs are going all the way, all the way this year!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: To the Bucs from a "fair weather" fan.....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
garzalny wrote:
If you want to delude yourself into thinking that the Nuttings have the fans' best interest at hear, be MY guest. Come to the dark side Luke....I am your father.......

You're clearly deluded on the opposite extreme: Bob Nutting apparently can do no right, even if he should win a World Series.

You lack objectivity and vision. I find that to be disappointing.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], No. 9 and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits