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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:13 pm 
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I would say 5th OF....

But you know, he's just got such a great attitude, you know? I mean, he's bad at baseball...we know that....but DID YOU KNOW HE USED TO BE A HOCKEY PLAYER? If I hear one more announcer talk about his hockey career, I'm going to puke. The truth is, he was bad at hockey too!! If he was any good at hockey, he'd be playing hockey right now. Talk about blocking your players with non-prospects....


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:22 pm 
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Well, here comes another blemish to my apologist credentials. I also agree that this whole "attitude" thing is way overblown. I think it started at the end of 2007 when, who was it, Coonelly (?), started moaning about some players who werent on the top step of the dugout for God Bless, America on the last day of the season. To me, this is straw man nonsense. Being a team guy is great, but its no prerequisite. Bonds, Ramirez, scores of others, take enough time away from the self indulgence to help their teams win titles.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:30 pm 
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Although rumors of a Delmon Young deal heating up, the Twins and Phillies have not talked lately and have no current plans to do so, according to the Star Tribune.
Indications were that the Phillies were simply asking around about Young, not rushing into trade talks with the Twins. La Velle E. Neal III believes that the Twins would want more than Jason Donald in return if trade talks did start up.


LOL. Good luck with that. We may not be in the running for Young either, but I dont think a Phils/Twins deal will get in our way if we are.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:23 am 
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garzalny wrote:
If you want to talk about something really stupid this team had done, you don't have to go any further than to bring up the playing of Nyjer Fricking Morgan ahead of Steve Pearce at the end of last year. They took a few hundred ABs away from Pearce, who the jury is out on, to give them to Morgan, whose game is as evident as anything on the team. Pearce has real promise as a hitter. Morgan has nothing...a fast guy who can't run the bases, a really fast guy who can't field his position and has to make diving catches because he takes awful routes to the ball, has zero power, but hey, he smiles alot and has a great attitude.

Here is where you will get disagreement from Elmer. He once thought that Morgan was a better prospect than McLouth, and he likely still thinks Morgan has a place on this team.

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:29 pm 
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As does NH. Go figure.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:03 pm 
Willton wrote:
garzalny wrote:
If you want to talk about something really stupid this team had done, you don't have to go any further than to bring up the playing of Nyjer Fricking Morgan ahead of Steve Pearce at the end of last year. They took a few hundred ABs away from Pearce, who the jury is out on, to give them to Morgan, whose game is as evident as anything on the team. Pearce has real promise as a hitter. Morgan has nothing...a fast guy who can't run the bases, a really fast guy who can't field his position and has to make diving catches because he takes awful routes to the ball, has zero power, but hey, he smiles alot and has a great attitude.

Here is where you will get disagreement from Elmer. He once thought that Morgan was a better prospect than McLouth, and he likely still thinks Morgan has a place on this team.


I did, indeed, think that Morgan was better than McLouth. I was wrong and I'm glad I was wrong because McLouth turned out to be damn good. Unlike Wilton, I can admit when I'm wrong.

I think he deserves a shot at earning a place on the team based on his play at the end of the year. I don't believe in handing jobs to people without them earning it -- the NH crap with last year's rotation.

I'd give him a shot to earn a job on the team. If he outplays his competitors, great. If others outplay him and he's sent down, great. Competition is win-win.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:07 pm 
Kingston wrote:
At the risk of being a lousy "apologist", I agree about Morgan and Pearce. I dont understand this love that now 2 managers have shown for Morgan, a viable 4th outfielder but nothing more.


Wilton is an apologist, Kingston, not you. If I posted something that made you think that, my bad. From what I've read, you're pretty balanced and objective in your takes.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:38 pm 
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So ok, now LA is denying interest in Jack. Detroits out of it. Twins are disappearing over the horizon, assuming that wasnt a mirage to begin with.

And even with Loretta gone, theres now talk about Eckstein or Counsell.

I wouldnt be surprised if, come Opening Day, Jack is still here and Sanchez is gone, as one sportswriter suggested.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:46 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if, come Opening Day, Jack is still here and Sanchez is gone, as one sportswriter suggested.


It seems the team is pushing Ford to be the 2nd baseman of the future...plus now that might open a spot for Neil Walker if he proves to be ready to be a Major League Hitter...

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:50 pm 
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Ill tell you one thing; whatever my expectations were about what we should get in return for Jack, those expectation rise significantly for Sanchez.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:06 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
Ill tell you one thing; whatever my expectations were about what we should get in return for Jack, those expectation rise significantly for Sanchez.


Sanchez has no ability to play anywhere but 2nd base now from his shoulder problems, his range isn't good, does not get on base well...His getting on base is based on his average only and I dont like where he was last season...

I hope there is a sucker out there thinking they're getting something, but hes nothing but a lack of range, no arm, swing at everything 2nd baseman...

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:16 pm 
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Last year, after the Break when he was healthy, he went .346/.378.

Yes, he doesnt draw many walks, but I see no problem with a guy who hits his way on base. Over a healthy season theres no reason to assume he cant go .320/.360 with a little pop at 2B. Hes no defensive whiz but he gets the job done. A team can control him for 2 years, if they choose to pick up his '10 option. And hes only 30. My own opinion, but I think he'll be more coveted by potential trade partners than Jack.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:25 pm 
Kingston wrote:
Last year, after the Break when he was healthy, he went .346/.378.

Yes, he doesnt draw many walks, but I see no problem with a guy who hits his way on base. Over a healthy season theres no reason to assume he cant go .320/.360 with a little pop at 2B. Hes no defensive whiz but he gets the job done. A team can control him for 2 years, if they choose to pick up his '10 option. And hes only 30. My own opinion, but I think he'll be more coveted by potential trade partners than Jack.


I'm kind of putting an asterisk next to his last year because I don't believe he was fully healthy at any point during the season. Hard to judge those numbers.

I think he deserves the shot to be a regular again, but I also think the Pirates are foolish if they don't have another option at second base in case Freddy is either hurt again or washed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:29 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Last year, after the Break when he was healthy, he went .346/.378.

Yes, he doesnt draw many walks, but I see no problem with a guy who hits his way on base. Over a healthy season theres no reason to assume he cant go .320/.360 with a little pop at 2B. Hes no defensive whiz but he gets the job done. A team can control him for 2 years, if they choose to pick up his '10 option. And hes only 30. My own opinion, but I think he'll be more coveted by potential trade partners than Jack.


I'm kind of putting an asterisk next to his last year because I don't believe he was fully healthy at any point during the season. Hard to judge those numbers.

I think he deserves the shot to be a regular again, but I also think the Pirates are foolish if they don't have another option at second base in case Freddy is either hurt again or washed up.


As mentioned earlier, I think they see Ford in that role down the road and theyre on their way to securing a possible spacefiller like Eckstein.

Sanchez has proven that, when healthy, he can flat out hit, so Ill place an asterisk next to his 2008 as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:32 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Last year, after the Break when he was healthy, he went .346/.378.

Yes, he doesnt draw many walks, but I see no problem with a guy who hits his way on base. Over a healthy season theres no reason to assume he cant go .320/.360 with a little pop at 2B. Hes no defensive whiz but he gets the job done. A team can control him for 2 years, if they choose to pick up his '10 option. And hes only 30. My own opinion, but I think he'll be more coveted by potential trade partners than Jack.


I'm kind of putting an asterisk next to his last year because I don't believe he was fully healthy at any point during the season. Hard to judge those numbers.

I think he deserves the shot to be a regular again, but I also think the Pirates are foolish if they don't have another option at second base in case Freddy is either hurt again or washed up.


I'm not suggesting giving him up either unless there is a replacement, I just think given his contract, age, injuries (he's only really had 2 or 3 years of being healthy), lack of range, inability to draw a walk, and his free swinging he is tough to trade...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:37 pm 
nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Last year, after the Break when he was healthy, he went .346/.378.

Yes, he doesnt draw many walks, but I see no problem with a guy who hits his way on base. Over a healthy season theres no reason to assume he cant go .320/.360 with a little pop at 2B. Hes no defensive whiz but he gets the job done. A team can control him for 2 years, if they choose to pick up his '10 option. And hes only 30. My own opinion, but I think he'll be more coveted by potential trade partners than Jack.


I'm kind of putting an asterisk next to his last year because I don't believe he was fully healthy at any point during the season. Hard to judge those numbers.

I think he deserves the shot to be a regular again, but I also think the Pirates are foolish if they don't have another option at second base in case Freddy is either hurt again or washed up.


I'm not suggesting giving him up either unless there is a replacement, I just think given his contract, age, injuries (he's only really had 2 or 3 years of being healthy), lack of range, inability to draw a walk, and his free swinging he is tough to trade...


I'm fine with trading Freddy or Jack, so long as the moves are legit baseball moves. With the Tigers, Dodgers and Twins all backing off one way or another, I'm very curious to see how the Jack thing unfolds. The type of trade (if any) that happens will tell a lot. And there are worse things than opening with Jack Wilson at shortstop.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:42 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Kingston wrote:
Last year, after the Break when he was healthy, he went .346/.378.

Yes, he doesnt draw many walks, but I see no problem with a guy who hits his way on base. Over a healthy season theres no reason to assume he cant go .320/.360 with a little pop at 2B. Hes no defensive whiz but he gets the job done. A team can control him for 2 years, if they choose to pick up his '10 option. And hes only 30. My own opinion, but I think he'll be more coveted by potential trade partners than Jack.


I'm kind of putting an asterisk next to his last year because I don't believe he was fully healthy at any point during the season. Hard to judge those numbers.

I think he deserves the shot to be a regular again, but I also think the Pirates are foolish if they don't have another option at second base in case Freddy is either hurt again or washed up.


I'm not suggesting giving him up either unless there is a replacement, I just think given his contract, age, injuries (he's only really had 2 or 3 years of being healthy), lack of range, inability to draw a walk, and his free swinging he is tough to trade...


If a guy can get on base better than 35% of the time, as Sanchez has shown he can do with ease when healthy, why does it matter if he does it swinging? And maybe he doesnt have that extra step defensively. But he fields what he gets to, the 2nd highest Fielding Pct in the NL, better than Utley. And since when is age a concern when youre 30?


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:23 pm 
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Kingston wrote:
If a guy can get on base better than 35% of the time, as Sanchez has shown he can do with ease when healthy, why does it matter if he does it swinging?

As a hitter gets older, one of the first things to decline is his bat speed and his ability to make contact. Since Sanchez's value is wholly wrapped up in his ability to hit for average, if that falters, his value drops significantly. Last year was a sign of what happens when Sanchez has trouble making contact.

Kingston wrote:
And maybe he doesnt have that extra step defensively. But he fields what he gets to, the 2nd highest Fielding Pct in the NL, better than Utley.

Fielding percentage is misleading for the very reason you state: it only measures what he gets to. Fielding percentage does not measure what he does not reach. If Freddy never moved from his ready position and only fielded batted balls that went his way, he'd probably have a really high fielding percentage, but he'd be the worst defensive 2nd baseman in the league. That's why range is extremely important defensively, especially to a middle infielder.

Kingston wrote:
And since when is age a concern when youre 30?

Since always. A hitter usually hits his peak at around age 27 or 28. At age 30, you're expecting a decline to happen sooner or later, and given Freddy's 2008, it appears that this decline is manifesting itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:34 pm 
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Sanchez's 2008 is more attributable to injury than age. If age were a factor to his season it would stand to reason he wouldnt have gotten significantly stronger as the season progressed. Better hitters, when healthy, dont have to expect a decline in their offense the minute they hit 30, and we're not talking about some team signing him to a 5 yr deal here.

As for his defense, no ones claiming hes Maz here, but you guys are acting like hes wearing anchors on his boots. Freddy DOES move from his steady position and fields his position more than adequately.

But again, the issue is not whether Freddy is a superstar. Hes not. I brought up the idea that he had greater relative value than Jack who is even older and not nearly the hitter Sanchez is when hes healthy.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again: Jack to Detroit?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:40 pm 
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Regarding Freddy and any potential trade. I think that the Pirates are going to shy away from moving him right after a poor season.

The did not want to trade Bay after a bad season, and the decision was solid. They did not move Nady after his best season up to that point, feeling that he had more value than he had showed, and they were right.

For Sanchez, if he comes out of spring training healthy, and hits like he has for the majority of his career (.300/.335/.420), his trade value will be much higher than it is right now.


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