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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:50 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
The Pirates do not have to make the playoffs to save Huntington's job. But if they break .500 AND see significant progress from their younger players and prospects, the entire regime will be safe.


You're probably right. And if the arrow is pointing up, I might agree with holding the course. But the pressure would be on for 2014...

Agree with both. The current Pirates team has enough talent to win 85 games. Not that they would need a disaster to wind up winning 79 again, but without any change, this roster has enough to put up 85 wins.

If they win 75, absent some perfect storm of misfortune that no team could absorb, then Huntington is in trouble.

If they win 82-85 and Cole, Taillon, Heredia, Bell, Polanco, Hansen, Barnes, and the 2 top picks this year progress as expected, then Huntington is safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:16 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton wrote:
The Pirates' system at the end of 2007 does not compare well to any of these lists of players.


I agree with you. I never said otherwise.

(By the way -- you only listed two young pitchers in your list of players with the Reds. Jocketty has had to bring in the rest.)

Wrong: Jocketty only brought in Volquez, Leake and Latos, with Volquez being swapped for Latos last year after Dusty Baker damn near ruined him. You forgot about Bronson Arroyo. I omitted Arroyo because he was over the age of 25 and not a star player, but he's a solid starter that has been with the Reds since before Jocketty arrived.

Another thing to note: Jocketty traded for Volquez and Latos using assets he inherited from the previous regime (i.e., Josh Hamilton and Yonder Alonso). Huntington did not inherit a Josh Hamilton or a Yonder Alonso that he could responsibly trade for similar-type players. (And before you say "What about Jason Bay?", Adam Dunn was Jocketty's Jason Bay.)

J_C_Steel wrote:
Regardless, all of these comparisons drive the conclusion that Neal Huntington should get more time to turn around the Pirates. OK. How much more time? Friedman and Jocketty had their teams qualifying for the playoffs in three years. If the Pirates don't qualify for the post-season in 2013, then Huntington will have had double that time (six full seasons) and failed to do so. Is that enough time? Or does Huntington need a decade to turn this franchise around?

I thought 5 years was enough time, at least to get us to above .500. Playoffs are a different ball of wax. I don't like putting timelines on such goals because it doesn't allow for consideration of particularly difficult or unforeseeable circumstances. I prefer to look at the organization's stated philosophy and the actions executed in furtherance of said philosophy, as well as the level of progress an organization makes from year to year.

If you wanted a timeline from me, then I'm sorry to disappoint. I can't solve all of your problems.

J_C_Steel wrote:
More to the point, why did you write that YOU would fire him if this season isn't a success, Willton?

I wrote that because after seeing the disappointing returns from the drafts thus far (and my disappointment mainly stems from the 2009 draft and other draft picks from later rounds), along with the controversial policies implemented from a player development standpoint (e.g., fastball academy; military-style conditioning), I think that the big club may benefit from someone else calling the shots. I have thus far agreed with NH's trading strategy and think he's much better at trading current assets than you claim, and until last year's CBA nixed it as a strategy, I've loved NH's willingness to take risks in the draft (e.g., Tanner Scheppers, Mark Appel) and shell out cash to seemingly unsignable amateur draft picks who were deemed to have high levels of talent (e.g., Josh Bell, Pedro Alvarez, Robbie Grossman, Quinton Miller, Zach Von Rosenberg). But I think he needs to be better at scouting talent and developing players, or at least hiring those who do such things well, so that a greater percentage of the prospects that we do bring in, either via trade or via the amateur draft, end up becoming average to above-average ball players.

So why one more year? Because I think he deserves an opportunity to see whether guys like Jerry Sands, Jose Tabata, Clint Robinson, and Travis Snider can make it as productive players. Because if such players end up being productive, it validates NH's decision to acquire them and will likely drive the Pirates over the .500 mark, giving reason to keep NH running the show for a little bit longer.

Also, I'm tired of losing, much like everyone here is. But to me, merely losing is not reason enough to axe NH. I can't in good conscience call for the head of the GM when the GM is not (for a lack of a better term) the proximate cause of the problem. The losing must be fairly tied to the GM's actions in order to justify his release.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:17 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
The Pirates do not have to make the playoffs to save Huntington's job. But if they break .500 AND see significant progress from their younger players and prospects, the entire regime will be safe.


You're probably right. And if the arrow is pointing up, I might agree with holding the course. But the pressure would be on for 2014...

Agree with both. The current Pirates team has enough talent to win 85 games. Not that they would need a disaster to wind up winning 79 again, but without any change, this roster has enough to put up 85 wins.

If they win 75, absent some perfect storm of misfortune that no team could absorb, then Huntington is in trouble.

If they win 82-85 and Cole, Taillon, Heredia, Bell, Polanco, Hansen, Barnes, and the 2 top picks this year progress as expected, then Huntington is safe.


Bucfan, you make me feel better. I really, really, really, really hope you're right about the "85-win talent." If Russell Martin contributes on both the offensive and defensive end of things, and SOMEONE provides about league-average production in right field, the lineup will only have one true hole. And the pitching? Just hope for little regression from Burnett/Rodriguez, a decent year from JMac, a typical 90-120 innings from Karstens, and something good from the pu-pu platter of Liriano/Locke/McFear.

Let's Go Bucs!


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