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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:04 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Obviously you've never heard of Alvarez, Cole, Taillon, Grossman (who brought us Wandy), Sanchez, Curry, Hague, D'Arnaud, Mercer, and Irwin, all of whom were at AAA or higher last year. Shall I go on and list all of the Huntington draftees who were at AA?


That is an absolutely awful list of players considering where the Pirates have drafted since he's been in charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:04 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
buccosfan77 wrote:
There were some guys slowed at the end of last year and that hurt the team badly. Walker, McDonald, ect. That hurt the team. Lack of production.

What Huntington has failed upon has been to many misses in the draft. By now -he talent pool should be higher than high a ball. Very few guys ready to make -he jump to the show and produce. And he hasn't landed any gems. No diamonds

Obviously you've never heard of Alvarez, Cole, Taillon, Grossman (who brought us Wandy), Sanchez, Curry, Hague, D'Arnaud, Mercer, and Irwin, all of whom were at AAA or higher last year. Shall I go on and list all of the Huntington draftees who were at AA?

Please...I'll give you 3 on that list and 2 of them haven't proven it yet. The other has been marginally disappointing considering where he was drafted. Grossman is a huge maybe. Sanchez is a huge disappointment as he should be the starting Pirate catcher by now. And the fact they went out and signed Martin isn't exactly a vote of confidence for him. He is one heckuva Tweeter though. Curry, Hague, D'Arnaud, Mercer, and Irwin...c'mon. Lots of guys make it to the majors. How about making a legitimate contribution. You are really stretching it to defend NH's drafts with that list. And most of your low A guys are Gayo's finds. NH has been miserable in the draft, especially when you consider where they were drafting and the fact that they bragged about how much extra money they were throwing at draft picks to get them to sign instead of go to college.

Some will make it, some won't, but they are ALL at AAA or higher already. If you can't make a case against Huntington without making stuff up, you aren't really trying very hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:06 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Obviously you've never heard of Alvarez, Cole, Taillon, Grossman (who brought us Wandy), Sanchez, Curry, Hague, D'Arnaud, Mercer, and Irwin, all of whom were at AAA or higher last year. Shall I go on and list all of the Huntington draftees who were at AA?


That is an absolutely awful list of players considering where the Pirates have drafted since he's been in charge.

Really? One guy with a 30 home run season and two number one type starters who will be in the majors by mid-2014 looks like a pretty damn good record to me, not to mention enough prospects to garner Wandy.

Everybody seems to think that the MLB draft is just like the NFL draft. It isn't even close.

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:36 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Obviously you've never heard of Alvarez, Cole, Taillon, Grossman (who brought us Wandy), Sanchez, Curry, Hague, D'Arnaud, Mercer, and Irwin, all of whom were at AAA or higher last year. Shall I go on and list all of the Huntington draftees who were at AA?


That is an absolutely awful list of players considering where the Pirates have drafted since he's been in charge.

Really? One guy with a 30 home run season and two number one type starters who will be in the majors by mid-2014 looks like a pretty damn good record to me, not to mention enough prospects to garner Wandy.

Everybody seems to think that the MLB draft is just like the NFL draft. It isn't even close.


Yeah its the DK argument that "my daughter can make great picks in the top 5 overall" which is nonsense. Kind of like Tampa, the best front office in the game, botching a #1 overall pick. Or of course DL turning a #1 overall and #4 overall into nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:27 am 
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I think this is a pivotal year for the PBC and its current leadership.

I need to see two arms move into the rotation in the form of NH draft picks. Starters, not relievers.

Maybe I'm on a high since my Sabres finally fired Ruff today, but I want to see movement. Winning starts at the bench, and rolls out onto the field.

NH and CH... Go do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:52 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Really? One guy with a 30 home run season and two number one type starters who will be in the majors by mid-2014 looks like a pretty damn good record to me, not to mention enough prospects to garner Wandy.


You just named three guys, two of which haven't thrown a pitch in the majors yet. Are you saying that means Neal Huntington has done a great job drafting these past 5 years? Really?

Here's the Pirates' full 2009 draft:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ype=junreg

How's that draft class look to you?


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:23 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
[
Some will make it, some won't, but they are ALL at AAA or higher already. If you can't make a case against Huntington without making stuff up, you aren't really trying very hard.

What exactly did I make up? You listed 3 players who are legitimate, and as I stated we haven't seen 2 of them yet. The other has been marginally disappointing. Also they were obvious picks...no brainers really. The other cast of characters you listed are going to be average major leaguers on their best days. You call that successful drafting? From a guy who has boasted about spending over slot to lock up guys that probably would've gone to college...guys who were supposed to be steals because they would be impact players drafted much lower than their talent level? Where are all of these players? You mentioned Grossman getting us Wandy. Funny that when we acquired Wandy many here were against it, saying he was too old and lost some of his "stuff". Now to make this argument Wandy has suddenly become the next Cy Young.

I didn't make anything up...you just gave a lousy list of names to try and support NH having successful drafts.


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:28 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Yeah its the DK argument that "my daughter can make great picks in the top 5 overall" which is nonsense. Kind of like Tampa, the best front office in the game, botching a #1 overall pick. Or of course DL turning a #1 overall and #4 overall into nothing.

If you are a MLB GM you better be able to select talent when drafting in the top 5. There are always going to be disappointments here and there, but in general they are no brainer picks. The only nonsense is comparing any GM to Littlefield...


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:37 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Yeah its the DK argument that "my daughter can make great picks in the top 5 overall" which is nonsense. Kind of like Tampa, the best front office in the game, botching a #1 overall pick. Or of course DL turning a #1 overall and #4 overall into nothing.

If you are a MLB GM you better be able to select talent when drafting in the top 5. There are always going to be disappointments here and there, but in general they are no brainer picks. The only nonsense is comparing any GM to Littlefield...


Oh come on, Kershaw and Lincecum were both selected after Lincoln. Cameron Maybin was selected before Cutch. Trout was the 25th overall pick for Christ sake. It's an inexact science and the success rate of the top 5 picks (with success being defined as players making the majors) is somewhere around 60%.


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:10 pm 
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I often read "if we only had a GM like the Rays' Andrew Friedman . .. "

Well, here are the last 5 drafts by the Rays (Friedman was GM for all 5 drafts):

2010 draft: http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks. Not a single pick has seen major league playing time.

2009 draft: http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks. Not a single draft pick has seen major league playing time.

2008 draft (which included the #1 pick overall): http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks. Not a single draft pick has seen major league playing time.

2007 draft (which netted David Price): http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks/4 with major league playing time.

2006 draft (which netted Evan Longoria): http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks/5 with major league playing time.

By my count, the Rays have drafted 250 players between 2006 and 2010 and 9 of them have seen major league playing time. And all 9 of those picks were drafted in 2006 and 2007. They've obtained Longoria and Price in that time frame. Friedman is 0 for his last 150 from 2008-2010, including having the first overall pick in 2008.

In BA's latest Top 100 prospects, there are 5 Rays listed. Here they are:
1. #4 Wil Myers (age 22); Not drafted by Rays. Drafted by Royals in 3rd Round of 2009.
2. #36 Chris Archer (age 24); Not drafted by Rays. Drafted by Indians in 3rd Round of 2006.
3. #62 Taylor Guerreri (age 20); Drafted by Rays in Round 1 of 2011
4. #90 Hak Ju Lee (age 22); Not drafted by Rays; signed by Cubs as international free agent
5. #92 Jake Odorizzi (age 23); Not drafted by Rays; drafted by Brewers as supplemental first round pick in 2008.

If only the Pirates had a GM like Andrew Friedman . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:13 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Yeah its the DK argument that "my daughter can make great picks in the top 5 overall" which is nonsense. Kind of like Tampa, the best front office in the game, botching a #1 overall pick. Or of course DL turning a #1 overall and #4 overall into nothing.

If you are a MLB GM you better be able to select talent when drafting in the top 5. There are always going to be disappointments here and there, but in general they are no brainer picks. The only nonsense is comparing any GM to Littlefield...


Oh come on, Kershaw and Lincecum were both selected after Lincoln. Cameron Maybin was selected before Cutch. Trout was the 25th overall pick for Christ sake. It's an inexact science and the success rate of the top 5 picks (with success being defined as players making the majors) is somewhere around 60%.

My point is that when you pick high, the player pool is filled with no brainers. I stated that you always have disappointments and some guys become busts. You also always have guys that slip through the cracks. I am well aware of the draft being an inexact science. My exact words were that you better be able to SELECT talent when drafting in the top 5(unless your last name is Littlefield). Whether Cole, Taillon, and Alvarez become superstars, average major leaguers, or busts is yet to be seen. But they were no brainers as far as selections. And the success rate for top 5 picks is far higher than that of guys selected in the middle of the first round, or at the end, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:23 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I often read "if we only had a GM like the Rays' Andrew Friedman . .. "

Well, here are the last 5 drafts by the Rays (Friedman was GM for all 5 drafts):

2010 draft: http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks. Not a single pick has seen major league playing time.

2009 draft: http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks. Not a single draft pick has seen major league playing time.

2008 draft (which included the #1 pick overall): http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks. Not a single draft pick has seen major league playing time.

2007 draft (which netted David Price): http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks/4 with major league playing time.

2006 draft (which netted Evan Longoria): http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft ... ranch_year. 50 picks/5 with major league playing time.

By my count, the Rays have drafted 250 players between 2006 and 2010 and 9 of them have seen major league playing time. And all 9 of those picks were drafted in 2006 and 2007. They've obtained Longoria and Price in that time frame. Friedman is 0 for his last 150 from 2008-2010, including having the first overall pick in 2008.

In BA's latest Top 100 prospects, there are 5 Rays listed. Here they are:
1. #4 Wil Myers (age 22); Not drafted by Rays. Drafted by Royals in 3rd Round of 2009.
2. #36 Chris Archer (age 24); Not drafted by Rays. Drafted by Indians in 3rd Round of 2006.
3. #62 Taylor Guerreri (age 20); Drafted by Rays in Round 1 of 2011
4. #90 Hak Ju Lee (age 22); Not drafted by Rays; signed by Cubs as international free agent
5. #92 Jake Odorizzi (age 23); Not drafted by Rays; drafted by Brewers as supplemental first round pick in 2008.

If only the Pirates had a GM like Andrew Friedman . . .

3 top 5 picks got him 2 superstars and a bust. I'd take that. But you are right...I'd hate to have a GM that finds a way to put his team in contention year after year after year...It's much better to be told to look to the future year after year after year... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:27 pm 
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PP -
If NH gets no credit for Alvarez, Cole and Taillon because those are "no brainers" picks, then Friedman shouldn't get credit for Price and Longoria because they were "no brainers" as well.

The point is relatively simple, if you want to sound credbile when criticizing NH's draft results, perhaps it should start with pointing out another GM's results which are markedly better.

Just my $.02.

-No. 9

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:39 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
PP -
If NH gets no credit for Alvarez, Cole and Taillon because those are "no brainers" picks, then Friedman shouldn't get credit for Price and Longoria because they were "no brainers" as well.

The point is relatively simple, if you want to sound credbile when criticizing NH's draft results, perhaps it should start with pointing out another GM's results which are markedly better.

Just my $.02.

-No. 9


Drafts don't occur in a vacuum. Good GMs use the draft as one method of building a winning team. I criticize NH's ability to do THAT. Friedman has used all of the tools in his belt to make TB into a consistently good team. He was named GM in 2005 and led the Rays to the playoffs (winning the AL pennant) in 2008.

Until NH gets similar results, I believe all aspects of his GM performance may be rightly criticized.


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:49 pm 
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I thought that my posts were pretty clearly directed towards the singular issue of draft competence and whether NH's performance is as bad as some would make it to be (you know . . . like pointing to the 2009 draft class as evidence of complete incompetance).

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:11 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I thought that my posts were pretty clearly directed towards the singular issue of draft competence and whether NH's performance is as bad as some would make it to be (you know . . . like pointing to the 2009 draft class as evidence of complete incompetance).


And I think my overall view is pretty clear that viewing any specific tool in a GM's arsenal without looking at how he uses his other tools results in an inaccurate picture of his effectiveness.

I brought up the 2009 draft class as an example of a failure. It's just an example.

If I wanted to paint the full picture, I would have to take into account his trades, free agent acquisitions, and other attempts to improve the PBC, and then ask everyone how long NH should get to produce a winning team. Oh wait, I did that already:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4652

Willton agreed that if the Pirates don't field a winning team in 2013, NH deserves to be fired. Do you agree?


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:33 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton agreed that if the Pirates don't field a winning team in 2013, NH deserves to be fired. Do you agree?


I know this wasn't directed at me but I'll respond anyway.

I don't think it's as simple as "NH needs to be fired if he doesn't win 82 games". It's a function of his improvement over time, the top to bottom success of the organization, whether someone available is more capable as a GM, and some other factors (trade evaluation, etc...).


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:48 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton agreed that if the Pirates don't field a winning team in 2013, NH deserves to be fired. Do you agree?


I'm assuming that the reference to "winning" refers to reaching 82 wins.

Based upon that assumption . . . no, I would not agree with that statement. I think that job performance is a far more complicated analysis than whether or not the Pirates win 80, 81 or 82 games. They could win 85 games and I could envision advocating for his termination (he sells off the farm for crap in an all out effort to win division and they fail). They could win 77 games and I could advocate for his retention (injuires to key personnel but off-season acquisitions perform well).

I'm also not of the belief that, when a particular draft pick doesn't pan out, it is necessarily evidence of a "failure." If the Pirates decided to draft me last year with the #1 pick because my name sounded cool and I grew up near Field of Dreams, that would be a "failure." Drafting someone like Chad Hermansen based upon solid scouting, established modeling and many hours of pouring over candidates and making a knowledgeable decision at the time does not, in my opinion, constitute a "failure." Predicting future greatness out of 18-22 year olds is probably more difficult than getting solid wood on a Mariano Rivera slider.

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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:13 pm 
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NH has not done a good job in the draft. We all agree that the draft is important for a team like the Pirates. My biggest point was he made obvious selections with Alvarez, Cole, and Taillon. Top picks have a better chance of becoming really good than lower picks. Other than those 3 names the list is more like suspects than prospects. And that is even with the spending over slot. The Pirates need to hit on more of those picks than some other teams. They haven't during NH's tenure. Thus I feel it is fair to say he hasn't been as productive in the draft as he needs to be. He is fortunate that his Latin American scouts have hauled in the guys they have. Comparing him to the GM of a small market team who is always in contention is ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Grilli Blasts the PBC's Management Team
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:51 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I'm also not of the belief that, when a particular draft pick doesn't pan out, it is necessarily evidence of a "failure." If the Pirates decided to draft me last year with the #1 pick because my name sounded cool and I grew up near Field of Dreams, that would be a "failure." Drafting someone like Chad Hermansen based upon solid scouting, established modeling and many hours of pouring over candidates and making a knowledgeable decision at the time does not, in my opinion, constitute a "failure." Predicting future greatness out of 18-22 year olds is probably more difficult than getting solid wood on a Mariano Rivera slider.


If that's the case, how do you judge a GM? If a GM selects a slew of players in the draft based on "solid scouting" and makes other acquisitions based on "many hours of pouring over candidates and making a knowledgeable decision" but ends up presiding over a team that continues to lose and lose and lose, would that GM be a "failure" in your book?

Using only your described method of evaluation, you would advocate employing a GM that never leads his team to a winning season so long as you approve of his general methods.

Let me tell you a few of things I know about baseball. I don't know much, but I know these things:

1. They keep score.
2. There is a winner and loser of each game.
3. GMs are judged by how many games their teams win or lose.

Every single major-league GM in baseball uses a sophisticated method based on reams of data and hours of analysis to make decisions. And every GM competes against every other GM to craft a better baseball team.

So far, Neal Huntington has failed to build a winning baseball team. He's had five seasons. He's entering his sixth at the helm. He's done some good things; he's done some dumb things. But overall, he hasn't built a contender. That's what he was tasked to do. If he doesn't do it this year, I'm betting he gets tossed out on his ear. And he'll deserve it.

I would have tossed him out after last year's second straight historic collapse. But that's me.


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