Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:32 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:54 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:01 pm
Posts: 88
Last night Colin Dunlap talked about the Pittsburgh Pirates and if .500 will be enough for Pirates fans. For the last two seasons this has been a topic to kick off the season; If the Pirates can just make .500 we can see the tide turning and put our full support into this team. I have debated this topic with friends and Pirates fans and my general conclusion is, yes, if the Pirates play .500 ball it will be enough. I say this because of the position that Pittsburgh as a baseball franchise can't compete on a year in and year out based on the economics.
This team must play .500 ball and hope they are able to turn a few tight losses into wins along the way in order to even come close to a wild card opportunity.
Even winning 87 games will only allow the team to sniff the playoffs and make the team a contender through the end of September. I know many are considering this season that a few players might take a step back but honestly, I do believe James McDonald will have full season. If he can win 15 game that would be great. Getting Burnett to 20 wins should be the goal. He came close but the team should rally around him to get him there. It was obvious that he was the leader in that clubhouse last year and hopefully the youth on that team can re-look to him for guidance.
I am expecting Wandy to win at least 8 games by all-star break, if he doesn't he could be gone. I got the feeling that he didn't like being traded to Pittsburgh and honestly I still don't know if he is happy. The Pirates need him to be a 15-17 game winner.
With those three pitchers we could have 50 wins right there. 81 is not out of the realm if this team can hit from the start of the season, not just Middle May through the end of July.
This team has the potential to win 87 games this season, but it also has the potential to only win 65 if our pitching staff doesn't throw up to par. Its been 20 yrs, I'll be happy with 82-80


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:50 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Eastern Shore
johnswahoo wrote:
Its been 20 yrs, I'll be happy with 82-80

Well, that is my thought exactly. I want this monkey off our backs. Now, when this topic came up late last July, would we be happy with just a winning season, I said that only finishing .500 would feel like a failure. Boy, was my sense of what would be a failure badly beaten into my psyche. I want 82 wins. Not 81. 82. After the electric starts to each of the last two seasons, I'll have to be happy with baby steps and hoping for continued development of Cole and Taillon. And not too much of a backslide for McCutchen and Burnett.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:21 am 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Naples, FL
I'm with yinz guys.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:30 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 3655
Location: Economy, PA
Absolutely, 82 wins would awesome. Anything less a dissapointment.

And in no way am I conceding that the Pirates can't compete year in and year out because of economics. They just have to be smarter about how they run their business.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5096
Location: Washington, DC
It wouldn't be enough for me. Finishing .500 has never been, and should never be, the goal. Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
J_C_Steel wrote:
It wouldn't be enough for me. Finishing .500 has never been, and should never be, the goal. Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters.


Come off it JC, playoffs matter more, but .500 matters too. Its ridiculous to claim that a winning season doesn't matter to a team mired in a 20 year losing streak. It matters to attendance, it matters to merchandise revenue, it matters psychologically to the team and fanbase, it matters to the owner who holds the purse strings.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Naples, FL
Winning the World Series is the goal. However, sometimes in life, you don't win the World Series and you have to wonder, would you be ok as a fan if your historically awful team won more games than it lost for the first time in Justin Beiber's lifetime.

I think I would accept it as an ok season.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5096
Location: Washington, DC
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
It wouldn't be enough for me. Finishing .500 has never been, and should never be, the goal. Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters.


Come off it JC, playoffs matter more, but .500 matters too. Its ridiculous to claim that a winning season doesn't matter to a team mired in a 20 year losing streak. It matters to attendance, it matters to merchandise revenue, it matters psychologically to the team and fanbase, it matters to the owner who holds the purse strings.


I've explained my position ad nauseum, BD. And I don't disagree with many of your latter points -- a .500 season would matter to the owners and managers of the PBC (it would increase attendance, team value, etc.). I don't think it would matter much to the players on the team (given that they have not been part of all 20 years of losing).

But I'm a born-and-bred Pittsburgher, raised in the rolling hills of the City of Champions... not the City of .500 Baseball Teams. I hold the teams I follow and support to the black-and-gold standard of their forbears, and I will not pop a champagne cork if the Pirates eek over .500 for the 2013 campaign. However, if the PBC qualifies for the playoffs, I will pay whatever is necessary to attend the first playoff game in two decades of Pirates baseball. And I will rejoice.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
It wouldn't be enough for me. Finishing .500 has never been, and should never be, the goal. Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters.


Come off it JC, playoffs matter more, but .500 matters too. Its ridiculous to claim that a winning season doesn't matter to a team mired in a 20 year losing streak. It matters to attendance, it matters to merchandise revenue, it matters psychologically to the team and fanbase, it matters to the owner who holds the purse strings.


I've explained my position ad nauseum, BD. And I don't disagree with many of your latter points -- a .500 season would matter to the owners and managers of the PBC (it would increase attendance, team value, etc.). I don't think it would matter much to the players on the team (given that they have not been part of all 20 years of losing).

But I'm a born-and-bred Pittsburgher, raised in the rolling hills of the City of Champions... not the City of .500 Baseball Teams. I hold the teams I follow and support to the black-and-gold standard of their forbears, and I will not pop a champagne cork if the Pirates eek over .500 for the 2013 campaign. However, if the PBC qualifies for the playoffs, I will pay whatever is necessary to attend the first playoff game in two decades of Pirates baseball. And I will rejoice.


I know you're opinion on the matter well, have fun being upset with 85 wins, but don't say things like "Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters". Winning matters too, a lot. We all understand that playoffs are the goal, you arn't teaching anyone anything. I highly doubt that anyone here thinks that .500 is the goal.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5096
Location: Washington, DC
Barrys Dopers wrote:
I know you're opinion on the matter well, have fun being upset with 85 wins, but don't say things like "Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters". Winning matters too, a lot. We all understand that playoffs are the goal, you arn't teaching anyone anything. I highly doubt that anyone here thinks that .500 is the goal.


That's what matters "to me," my friend. And the PBC's stated goals are PLAYOFFS and CHAMPIONSHIP.

Also, I'm not trying to "teach" anybody anything. I'm simply giving you (and the board) my perspective as a born-and-raised Pittsburgher. I know what my city stands for. And it ain't gonna do backflips for slightly above .500 non-playoff baseball seasons.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Naples, FL
"Being ok" and "doing gymnastics" are two completely different levels of gymnastics.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Naples, FL
Should the Pittsburgh Pirates Throw a Victory Parade if They Win 82 Games?

No.

I'm firmly with JC on this one.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5816
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
J_C_Steel wrote:
It wouldn't be enough for me. Finishing .500 has never been, and should never be, the goal. Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters.


Then I take it that you were satisfied with the final results of '90, '91 and '92. And '74 and '75.

I choose to take a realistic view of expectations. I was pleased with the results in '88 because it appeared that the Bucs were going to break out of the miserable stretch in the mid-80s and built upon a decent '87 year. '89 was horrendous following the positive '88 season. I was thrilled with playoff qualification in '90 and disappointed with the loss to the Reds but playoff qualification was "enough" for me that year. Both '91 and '92 broke my heart and playoff qualification was not "enough" for me because those teams had enough talent to win it all.

If you won't be satisfied with anything less than playoff qualification this year, then prepare for disappointment. Your expectations exceed any objective evaluation of what is currently on the roster. This team is, at best, a long shot at qualifying for the playoffs.

A realist's view of the talent on this team suggests that winning more games than it loses along with talent advancement in key positions such as Marte, Alvarez, Walker and Snider would be a positive accomplishment. Seeing advancement from Heredia, Cole, Taillon, Bell, Hansen and Polanco and others in the minors. Yeah, playoff qualification and world championships may be the "ultimate goal" but refusing to be satisfied with solid progression towards that goal is, at least in my eyes, myopic.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 pm
Posts: 10719
The ultimate answer to everything is ... 42. (Shout-out to fans of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.)

Actually, my take is that 82 wins is great - if the teams shows improvement.

If Marte gets on base, shows some power, and his defense is as advertised.

If Travis Snider finds his power and hits 20+ HR's.

If Cole gets a midseason call-up and shows why he was the first pick in the 2011 draft.

If Taillon, Hanson, Polanco, Barnes, Bell, Heredia make really good progress in the minors.

At that point, 82 wins is fine since the 2014 Pirates would be a much more competitive team and possibly a playoff contender.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
I know you're opinion on the matter well, have fun being upset with 85 wins, but don't say things like "Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters". Winning matters too, a lot. We all understand that playoffs are the goal, you arn't teaching anyone anything. I highly doubt that anyone here thinks that .500 is the goal.


That's what matters "to me," my friend. And the PBC's stated goals are PLAYOFFS and CHAMPIONSHIP.

Also, I'm not trying to "teach" anybody anything. I'm simply giving you (and the board) my perspective as a born-and-raised Pittsburgher. I know what my city stands for. And it ain't gonna do backflips for slightly above .500 non-playoff baseball seasons.


Your perspective is apparently the same as everyone's, you admit that winning matters, but its not the goal. No one has said they will do "back-flips" if the win 85 games. The question is whether it will be satisfactory. You honestly are telling me that you will be angry about the Pirates 2013 season if they finish 85-77. You know you won't be, you will talk about the positive developments and how it leads to the ultimate goal. Stop being so black and white.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Should the Pittsburgh Pirates Throw a Victory Parade if They Win 82 Games?

No.

I'm firmly with JC on this one.


Everyone on this board agrees on this.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5096
Location: Washington, DC
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Your perspective is apparently the same as everyone's, you admit that winning matters, but its not the goal. No one has said they will do "back-flips" if the win 85 games. The question is whether it will be satisfactory. You honestly are telling me that you will be angry about the Pirates 2013 season if they finish 85-77. You know you won't be, you will talk about the positive developments and how it leads to the ultimate goal. Stop being so black and white.


Going 85-77 and not qualifying for the playoffs won't be satisfactory to me as a season. It'll be improvement, but still failure. Hopefully, it'll be failure on the path to success.

I have high standards. Always have. Always will. I refuse to apologize for that.

Oh, and a word about "expectations": The Pirates were 60-44 on August 1, 2012. They should be fielding a slightly better, deeper team this season. Why do so many here consider the playoffs to be a pipe dream in 2013? Given that last year's second-half collapse was largely due to lack of depth and the team shored that up a bit (particularly in terms of pitching), why aren't people gung ho about the Bucs' chances to qualify for the playoffs?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Your perspective is apparently the same as everyone's, you admit that winning matters, but its not the goal. No one has said they will do "back-flips" if the win 85 games. The question is whether it will be satisfactory. You honestly are telling me that you will be angry about the Pirates 2013 season if they finish 85-77. You know you won't be, you will talk about the positive developments and how it leads to the ultimate goal. Stop being so black and white.


Going 85-77 and not qualifying for the playoffs won't be satisfactory to me as a season. It'll be improvement, but still failure. Hopefully, it'll be failure on the path to success.

I have high standards. Always have. Always will. I refuse to apologize for that.

Oh, and a word about "expectations": The Pirates were 60-44 on August 1, 2012. They should be fielding a slightly better, deeper team this season. Why do so many here consider the playoffs to be a pipe dream in 2013? Given that last year's second-half collapse was largely due to lack of depth and the team shored that up a bit (particularly in terms of pitching), why aren't people gung ho about the Bucs' chances to qualify for the playoffs?


Largely because the Cardinals and Reds have better teams with less holes on paper. Things could break right for us, Votto could continue to show no power due to his knee, Chapman could be a disaster in the rotation (making Broxton and Arroyo regressions more painful), the Cards young arms could struggle and Garcia could be surgery bound, Furcal and Beltran might miss big chunks of time. There are lots of plausible scenarios that would have us in 1st place, but the odds are against it.

I wouldn't say the collapse was due to lack of depth but rather regression to the mean by many 1st half key over achievers including JMac, Cutch, Walker, and Grilli/Hammer combined with losing 2/5 of the starting rotation (Morton and Bedard). Then the panic set in and things really went to hell, which speaks to the psychological importance of breaking the streak. No team in MLB has enough SP to take losing three effective SP (one ace in JMac) while compensating for key dropoffs from their best two hitters (Walker due to injury) and 8th/9th inning issues.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:20 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 3655
Location: Economy, PA
Regression to the mean and injuries were part of it but the pyschological aspect was the main reason. They just couldn't take the pressure.

The trade deadline has been a problem both years. Hopefully this year there will be fewer trades and the team will be playing well both before and after the deadline.

I too think the Reds and Cards are better but you never know. I'd be thrilled to make the playoffs but would be fine with breaking the streak this year and true contention next year.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Is .500 going to be enough for Pirates fans this season?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5419
Location: Pittsburgh
J_C_Steel wrote:
It wouldn't be enough for me. Finishing .500 has never been, and should never be, the goal. Qualifying for the playoffs is the goal. That's what matters.

There's something we can agree on.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits